Far 2 Fabulous

Joy Is Not A Luxury

• Julie Clark & Catherine Chapman • Episode 109

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Episode 109: Joy Is Not A Luxury

Joy shouldn’t sit at the end of your to-do list like a dessert you have to earn. We pull joy right into the centre of daily life and dig into why your body, brain and heart are wired to thrive on it. From the vagus nerve’s calming power to the way laughter lowers cortisol and boosts serotonin and dopamine, we map the science that explains why you can’t be stuck in fight or flight while you’re genuinely having fun.

We share the real-world ripple effects too: calmer guts and fewer IBS flares when stress eases, smarter metabolism when the adrenals quit shouting at your thyroid, and kinder blood pressure when you stop bracing your way through the day. Doomscrolling and fear leave a mark; nourishing moments undo it. That can look like belly laughs that crack a grump, but also quiet joy — a glassy evening sea, a warm dog asleep across your legs, music in the kitchen while dinner simmers. Joy isn’t pricey or rare; it’s a set of repeatable habits anyone can practise.

We also talk about vulnerability, grief and guilt — the places where smiling can feel wrong and fun feels frivolous. Joy doesn’t erase pain; it helps you carry it. You’ll hear simple, low-cost ideas for building a joy practice: scheduling play instead of chores, choosing connection over headphones, swapping news loops for a chapter by the fire, and reclaiming the hobbies you dropped when life got serious. Think choir nights as non-negotiable, puddle-splashing with the right boots, a post-swim glow, or a bike ride after decades that makes you throw your legs out like a kid.

If you’ve struggled to answer “When did I last really laugh?” this conversation is your nudge. Pick one thing that lights you up and do it this week, then tell us about it so your spark becomes someone else’s idea. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs a lift, and leave a quick review — your support helps more people find their way back to everyday joy.

Got a question or comment? Send us a text message here!

Thank you for listening.

You can continue the conversation with us in the Far 2 Fabulous Facebook group. Come and connect with other women on a journey to empowered health.

For more information about Julie Clark Nutrition, click HERE
For more information about Catherine Chapman, click HERE

We look forward to you joining us on the next episode.

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to Pocket Fabulous. Fabulousness and re fabulous. Get ready. How would we Hello, hello, and welcome to this week's episode of Far Too Fabulous Podcast. And here we are, back in the singing. How are you doing, everybody? I hope that you are having a fabulous week. Basically.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Every week. Every week. But I mean this week. In particular, right now. What are we talking about today? We are talking about. Well, the reason I thought we'd talk about this is because what's one of your biggest and bestest values, Julie? Is it joy? It might be joy. Yeah, absolutely. I was, I was kind of. We talk about some serious shit sometimes, don't we? And it gets we can get kind of a bit, and I I actually think that there are points of this topic that we could get really down and dirty with. I just wanted to have a little bit of fun. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing. Do you know what? Yeah, this is this is the point. We excuse that, don't we?

SPEAKER_01:

It's why is fun a luxury? No, it's not, it's a necessity. A necessity.

SPEAKER_00:

It's good because we've not stuck our teeth in today as well. But it is, isn't it? We almost excuse it, or we feel like we have to earn it. Yeah. And that's not true. So we are we're here to we're here to tell you about why it is essential. Like we say with self-care, it's a self-care is essential, it's not a luxury. You don't have to earn it, and joy is as important as that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I'm not going to try and say the word again. So I think this is so important that I asked my clients this question. When did you what what do you find? What is your joy? When's the last time you really laughed? And there are so many people that cannot answer that question.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, a tumbleweed just sort of rolls across the screen when you're talking to them because they're like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01:

No, they don't know. What brings you joy? Oh, that's a really good question. Let me think about that.

SPEAKER_02:

Hmm.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, and we get lots of that. And then when was the last time you laughed, like properly laughed? And again, people have to really think, oh, when was that? When was that?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. No, it's really sad, isn't it? And when I was pitching this idea of uh the joy podcast to the joy podcast, it probably is one of those actually, to you. I was saying that, and and it links in with this that people feel like they have to earn the moments of joy. Is that the joyful things often get put off for all the daily snorsome things? That's a word, isn't it? Don't they? Like, no, I haven't I haven't finished, I don't know, tidying the house for the weekend. Like, these are not my words. I have never said these words in my entire life, but I am just surmising that maybe somebody might say this once. I'm I haven't finished tidying the house for the weekend, so I can't go to choir.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that never happens. That because it's an unnegotiable for us, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00:

Hell yeah. But it is, it's those things. I can't come and meet you for a coffee because I haven't finished my, you know, fill in the boring blank. And I do and I just I mean I I do prioritise these things, probably a little bit more than I should. Is there a limit then? Is it nationwide agrees? Right, I see what you're saying. I see what I'm saying. Yeah, however, I yeah, so I've got very good at prioritising things that I love doing. I I mean in the summer, paddleboarding, swimming, swimming for me, actually at any time of the year, is is an absolute joy. Connection with people is an absolute joy, and I do prioritise those things. You flipping yourself upside down is an absolute joy.

SPEAKER_01:

Pure joy. When I was doing that gymnastics camp the other week and I did that move I told you about when I was at gym camp. Never that this time at gym camp. This one time at gym camp. Yeah, when I was doing that move and everybody was saying to me, What did it, what did it feel like? And I just had the biggest smile. I mean, I screamed. If you saw that video I posted out, I just screamed afterwards. It was just like flying. Yeah, I mean, flying.

SPEAKER_00:

How cool is that? I mean, yeah, and why wouldn't you love that? That's so I think I'd scream all the way through it. Round around. It is very brave though, isn't it? Doing those flips and stuff.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, because it is scary, but then that's where you get when you do scary things. Or we've spoken about being outside your comfort zone, that that's where all the magic happens. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01:

So you can't get that feeling if you don't push past the fear anyway. And perhaps maybe people are a bit scared of joy and enjoying themselves and just having fun.

SPEAKER_00:

Maybe that's right. There is definitely an element of vulnerability. And again, when we were chatting about this just now, we were talking about often the last time that maybe people have laughed lots or felt joy is perhaps when alcohol was involved and that maybe people feel like they need that little bit of little bit of help, little bit of lubrication to to laugh like a kid again. Whereas, yeah, when we were younger, we just used to we'd laugh at like anything laugh at nothing, probably, just make up silly stuff, and yeah, it was all a bit a bit a bit more joyous. I mean I mean when did life get so serious? So boring. I mean, adulting, I am so over adulting. I'm so over. Have you actually done any adulting? Have you tried? I try, I'm really, really bad at it. I'm really bad at it, and it but it's again because it's boring, isn't it? It's so boring. There's no joy, and I guess that's that's something I'm gonna have to reframe because I should get a bit better at it, and so I'm gonna have to reframe that the adulting. Adulting is fun, let's affirm that one. Yes, you might need to do that. Paying my mortgage is so much fun, I love it. That was hard to say, wasn't it? Yeah, really got stuck. So, if we haven't convinced you enough that that joy is essential, it is biological. I feel there's a song there as well. Anyway, so quick run through lowers cortisol, increases dopamine, boosts serotonin, strengthens a vagal tone. I mean, we all like a toned vagus nerve, don't we?

unknown:

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01:

When's the last time you laughed? Every time we get together. Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

I thought you were gonna say when was the last time we had a drink? Was it this morning? Yeah, that's why I bought my own soup, where I just got whiskey in it. No, no. Improves immune function and enhances longevity markers. And those things to you and me, that's I mean, like, those words are all better than sex, quite frankly, aren't they? Like, ooh, I love those, but they might not mean something to lots of people. So we're gonna we're gonna break it down for you because all of these things are just about living living longer, but living on purpose and having a quality to life rather than just surviving.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, you got you've got to go through life with some fun and joy, absolutely. The thing that I find fascinating with you talking about the vagus nerve and that's how it raises serotonin and dopamine is that that is to do with those two sides of your nervous system. You know, you've got the sympathetic, the fight and flight, and then you've got the parasympathetic, which we call the rest and digest. Yeah, you cannot be in your sympathetic nervous system when you're in joy. So you stimulate your vagus nerve when you're in joy, you don't do that when you're in a stress. Yeah. So you can't, it's not like you can mix it up, it's one or the other.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So then you get the benefits of joy stimulating that vagus nerve, and then it does all that cascade of things for the whole mind.

SPEAKER_00:

It's really clever actually. It's nice. And the enemy, it's really obvious. You know if you're in a grump and you know if you're you're joyful and laughing, and you can also you can be intentional about it. You can you can, you know, you can switch these things.

SPEAKER_01:

Hmm. Yeah, you know when you're in a grump though, and you want to be in a grump, but then someone makes you laugh. Oh, the reason why you don't want to laugh is because you know it's gonna switch you out of the grump that you want to be in. But that's how powerful it is. Yeah, it's like one or the other. You can either be over here or over there, and when you are in a grump and you want to wallow in it, don't you? Yeah, you don't want your for me, it'll be my son making me laugh because he does that all the time. And I want to be in a grump. Yeah. I'm really cross. Yeah, stay cross, I'm gonna wallow in it. No, you've made me laugh and I'm out of the grump.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Oh, I Kitty is my favourite one to do that too. And I did, I I don't know what I said to her yesterday, and you just watched that grump crack, just the smile, just sort of crack. You're like, yes, yes, winning, I've got through. Got it, yeah. Yeah. And she's world-class at grumps, so I mean, it's it's there's there's lots of victory there. So this one, I mean, if we said nothing else other than this next thing and this next benefit, I think we'd be dumb. Is that it lowers stress hormones. We talk about stress being really bad for us and how it affects like all of our systems, and so having joy as your like counteract of that is brilliant, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's super, super powerful. And although we talk about stress being a bad thing, we do need some stress, but for the purpose of this, most people are too stressed, yes, and then the massive impact it has on so many things, it's so huge. But yeah, the minute that you put joy in, it's that you can't be in that stress part of the nervous system, yeah, you just can't.

SPEAKER_00:

No, absolutely, and so for you guys, just think about like when you're stressed, your your your gut joins in with that, doesn't it? And so lowering those stress hormones, those cortisol levels in your body calms all of that down. So if that is something I you know, I you hear IBS thrown around quite a lot. This is this is yeah, I give you the pill of joy.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, love it. Yeah, the gut, because the gut is such an emotional centre as well, isn't it? Yeah, and that's where we produce a lot of our inflammation markers from. So when we're in that fun side of things, again, we're not producing inflammatory response, yeah, we're not tightening all those muscles in the gut, so it makes sense that it has an impact there.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely. And inflammation is so bad for us, isn't it within our gut? So anything that combats that is brilliant. That plays into also all of the things that we want as uh as women or what they think we want. This goes back to conversation we had off of air about kind of weight loss and all that sort of stuff. It plays into all that metabolic health as well, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it absolutely does because when you're stressed, it impacts things. I spoke before in another podcast about when we're stressed and the adrenals are really ramping the hormones up, that the thyroid is like the adrenal's best friend, best buddy, yes, and just slams the brakes on. It's like, wow, what's going on here? Slams the brakes on, and then our metabolism slows, and everything that goes with that means that we can gain weight.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so laughing makes you thin.

SPEAKER_01:

That's what I take from that, right? Yes, take from that. I think I think there could be some evidence actually to support that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I'm sure that there, I'm sure that there is, definitely. Healthy hearts, how about that?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and again, this makes sense because if you're not stressed because you're laughing and enjoy, yeah, having fun, yeah, that's gonna lower your blood pressure for a start. And then because of that, tie in with cortisol and stress increasing things like your blood clotting, all of those things. It again it makes sense that cardiovascular disease would be reduced if you're in in a happy place.

SPEAKER_00:

In a joyful state, yeah, absolutely. And I think I I mean it's partly to do with uh the age that we all are becoming now, but you hear blood pressure being spoken about a lot more. I mean, it's for me it's normal from nursing. Um, a mum has has always suffered with high blood pressure, so it's something that I'm used to hearing about and talking about, but actually more and more now, sort of friends and friends of friends start to talk about high blood pressure, and that that very slight raise is you know, there's there's a normality as you're getting older that it it goes up a little bit, but not to the point that it is dangerous, and I and I think that our stressful, unhelpful sort of lives don't play don't don't support that at all. And if this is something that you could add in, a little bit of joy, like be really intentional about it, or just don't block it. Maybe I think we just yeah, I don't know. And also thinking about with and maybe even going back to the going back to the stress when you're thinking about like social media or the news or all of that sort of stuff, when you're just sat there still doom scrolling or watching the terrible things that are happening on the uh like out out in the world, what that is doing to your insides when you could quite simply and I've and perhaps we're not just we're not just talking about like rolling around belly laughing, we're talking about like curling up in the corner with a with a book and a fire and a and a hot chocolate or creating those nourishing, joyful moments that are more beneficial than doom scrolling or doom scrolling is so bad, and the news, the news really does annoy me.

SPEAKER_01:

I try and avoid the news as much as possible, but then I get a little bit cross when I don't know what's going on in the world and I can't I can't join in in certain conversations that are happening because I'm like, who? What's that? Yeah, what have you made? Yeah, but I think that it's so detrimental, and I think the the media knows this. Oh, hundreds. And what they could do is wouldn't it be nice if every news bulletin actually finished with something nice? I'm sure it used to. They could, I think they used to do that, but I think that could be done and that could be helpful because it is so depressing, and it does, like you said, it impacts everything. I think the biggest thing it does is whenever you listen to the news, and I notice this with the kids, and that's why I try my best to keep them away from it, is that it instills fear every time, and fear is terrible, it's terrible to be. It's almost literally the direct opposite of joy, it is, and and when we think about vibrational energies and things like that, yeah. I mean, we won't go too far down this route at the moment, but on the spectrum of that, the way that the cells vibrate, yeah, that fear is so bad for the cells.

SPEAKER_00:

It's pretty much right down the bottom there, yeah. Whereas that that high vibration of joy is yeah, right at the top. And the trouble is is the fear, I think, probably sells, if you like. It makes people it makes people come back, doesn't it, to having a like to have a look at the news. But you can't like years ago when we didn't have a way of knowing what was going on in the whole entire wide world, and we we couldn't we can't affect it. Like we can't do anything about it on such a huge scale that we'd like to, yeah. That uh it there is no benefit to knowing to knowing all about it. Yeah, it's it's really it is scary, all that stuff. So so grab a good book, watch a comedy. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01:

I love watching funny things, even like you know, on YouTube where you get the the babies laughing. Yes! I love that the bait the sound of a baby laughing, giggling is really, really good. Yeah. I used to love those um outtakes from this morning with Holly Willoughby and Philip Stone just laughing.

SPEAKER_00:

Other people laughing is the funniest thing, yeah, yeah. No, you're absolutely absolutely right. We did Tony Robbins uh Unleash the Power Within, and we were in the Excel, and there's something like 10,500 people in this in this big auditorium, and I think we had just done like a meditation, so we were he'd got to sort of find somewhere to lay. God knows how we were all laying down, and and then so as we were coming back out of it, I don't think it was him leading it, it was somebody leading it, started what I would now kind of recognise probably as like laughter yoga, so just started us laughing. And it's contagious, isn't it? It's the funny, it's people's funny laughs that then sent the ripples of everybody else laughing all around the place, and it was and however, and then again, people were really self-conscious about laughing, and it was they felt very vulnerable. I think there is a yeah, there is a vulnerability to laughing, and maybe if you've got a funny laugh, perhaps you suppress it or and I think you should have to say. I mean, Elaine Page don't care, does she? No, you should just let those laughs go, I think, and that makes everybody else laugh. When uh I have laughed so much that I can't like I've got tears scorching out my eyes, is have you ever seen the outtakes of Ellen's show when they make people jump? There's a box in between the two seats. So when she's interviewing like megastars, there's this box in between, I guess that, or it looks like a table, and every now and again they have somebody in there that jumps out and frightens. I've never seen this. Oh my god, or they'll come from behind them and just frightens the life out of them, and then they try and get her back, and then you'll see videos of out the back, and they'll try and get like if she's walking into the toilet or something, and there's like um Taylor Swift or somebody crawling down in the corner of her bathroom and then jumping out as she comes in. And I am I am in absolute tears, like corpsing. I just I love that feeling. I love laughing so much that you can't actually breathe.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it kind of starts that uh uh uh you've got like you can't just get you can't even make any sound when you're laughing like that, can you? I had that situation over Christmas and it was so ridiculous. But you know, when something just really tickles you, and it was me and my sister, and I can't even remember what we were doing, but she said something, and I just absolutely fell about laughing. Nobody knew what I was laughing at.

SPEAKER_00:

You can't tell them, can you?

SPEAKER_01:

Because you can't speak, can't get it, can't get those words out, but then everybody was laughing, and then that's the one thing that everybody remembers from Christmas is me laughing about something Jackie said that wasn't even that funny, but I thought it was hilarious.

SPEAKER_00:

Just really, just really hit the spot, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And we had another one when we were in Japan, we were in a restaurant, and my son said something again that I just thought was really funny, yeah, but my husband didn't get the joke at all. But me and Charlie were tears, we we were uncontrollably laughing, it was so funny, and it was just the fact that my husband was so deadpanged. Well, what was what's funny about that? What's funny about and then that made it even more funny, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That's it. When you're not supposed to be laughing as well, that's quite funny. Um yeah, if you were in a classroom or something.

SPEAKER_01:

I remember when I was about I was at primary school. This is how vivid this memory is. I must have been about eight or nine years old. Yeah, I was going to be playing the recorder in the music concert. Me and my friend were playing a a recorder piece together. And we got the giggles. Well, have you ever tried to play the recorder with the giggles?

SPEAKER_00:

I don't think that works.

SPEAKER_01:

It was the funniest thing. It wasn't the teacher did not find it funny. The audience didn't, well, actually, some of the audience did find it funny. We couldn't get through this piece. When you're trying to breathe down, you're not looking and you're laughing, and it just makes difficult to say. Yeah. Oh and I still remember that to this day.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, that's so there are so many things you can't do. I mean, as well as not being cross, there was so I can't sing. Oh, you can't sing when you're laughing. No, you can't. No, no. And that's uh, yeah, that's that's not good. I love it, I love it. So, benefit number three is to your immunity. Now, I mean, we we bang on on about all sorts of amazing ways to support our immunity, but this is so simple, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So if you know if you know someone who's a grumpy bugger, you can basically tell them, yeah, your immune system's not going to be working.

SPEAKER_00:

Cheer up, yeah. Unless you don't want them to cheer up because they're a grumpy bugger, then let them carry on. Yeah, they won't be with us for long.

SPEAKER_01:

And this one again is to do with inflammatory markers and things. Okay, yeah, so we don't have that response and we're able to let our immune system work better when we're in that joy. That links back to vagus nerve as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, no, that's and I mean we talk about things like biohacks, don't we? And we expect them to be these these amazing things, but this is just so simple. I love it. Here's an interesting one. Joy improves pain tolerance. How about that?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and I would think that the mechanism there is again to do with inflammation.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And things like that. I mean, they give us laughing gas when we're having babies, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh my god, that's tough.

SPEAKER_00:

That's I was only brave enough to have that at the very, very end stages, like a kitty'd been born of kitty. So I've done three of them, and it was a real control thing. Again, it's a control thing. I think that's probably why we like the like the alcohol, and we just let go of the control. I don't know. And I was I was very high um being put back together. I won't I will uh spare you the details, but I was I was kind of laughing, and it was it was what was really funny was that the midwife that was with us was totally on my wavelength. The consultant that was um doing doing the jobs thought that I was kind of laughing and making noises about something totally different, and the midwife was like, no, no, she means, and I've gone that she knew exactly what I was not even talking about. Yeah, yeah, the the fun, the fun of the uh gas and air. So perhaps if someone's doing like a really hard session of Pilates, for instance, if they smiled, it wouldn't be as hard. Do you think that works?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I think I think given the knowing how your Pilates class goes and you do smile and laugh a lot doing your Pilates, maybe that's a coping mechanism for you and you haven't realised and it does actually work. Oh yeah, and it works. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

There we go. I do do like a lot of laughter as we uh as we are doing things. And I mean, I don't I don't need alcohol to laugh at myself. No, I've I'm quite happy to do that. So this is another thing actually. It in all the like self-help stuff, they to often talk about putting yourself out of your comfort zone. I think it's um Denise Duffield Thomas says something about doing something embarrassing every single day just to kind of build your tolerance up. And I I embrace that mainly why my children are around. But I embrace Is it is it accidental though? Sometimes, sometimes, and then I'll own it. But I think it just makes that it makes it a lot easier to kind of to laugh and and to be yourself, maybe. And I think maybe that's maybe that's the difficulty, maybe that's why people feel like they need the the um the vessel of alcohol to to kind of relax and let go, is because they find it hard to to be themselves, and that's where the the joy and the laughter is.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think joy, joy and laughter do go very nicely together, don't they? But joy isn't just all about laughter. So I was just thinking that actually a lot of joy is tied in with gratitude, mmm, because like sometimes I'll go like yesterday when I walked down the beach in the evening, the sea was like glass, it was dead calm, and I found that really joyous. Yeah, at the same time, I was thinking to myself, how lucky am I to be able to walk down here in the evening and see that? Yeah, and I was walking the dog. Things like that, I think you can get joy that it's not necessarily tied into laughter or just that proper losing it, it's not all about that, is it? But just it being in the moment, I think helps as well.

SPEAKER_00:

No, absolutely. What's interesting is that that because you're like within your talk about the the laughter and joy and feeling that high energy, still that gratitude feeling is still that same sort of vibration, isn't it? Within your within your body, yeah, it absolutely is. How lovely. And the the last benefit, and I think for me, I think this is probably one of the most important, is longevity, is that that living as long as you can, but it and it being quality of life, yeah, absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I think there's some studies that have been done as well with longevity and whether people are the glass if is half empty or half full. Yes, that people who are more positive actually live longer and better, have reduced illness and things, yeah, absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, better recovery, kind of bounce back from things, and I guess that's to do with like your mental attitude as well. Perhaps if yeah, if you're a glass half full kind of person, that you are yeah, gonna bounce back things. Um, and it's talked about having stronger social networks as well. And I said about that connection and things, I think that's really, really important and ties in with this joy. We are very uh sociable uh beings, even even the ones of us that claim that we're not. I think that if we don't have even a few very close people around us, it uh it it makes maybe this is a gross general statement, but I think it makes for a maybe a very lonely and not as fulfilled life.

SPEAKER_01:

And the other thing is that it doesn't necessarily have to be those really deep friendships, it could be just the connections that you have going about your daily life as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I've noticed in recent years how many people are disconnected, especially walking the dog. There are a lot of people that I mean, I probably like you, I'll say hello to everyone. Oh yeah. But how many times do people not even realise you've said hello? Yeah, or they don't say anything back, or you even know the way that their body language is coming towards you that there's no point in even saying hello. There's so many disconnected people.

SPEAKER_00:

I was thinking this yesterday about still when we're walking the dog, there's still people that will like move into the road away from you. Like before COVID, you'd just walk past somebody on a pavement, wouldn't you? Or on a path. You would just walk right next to them, past them. You'd probably say good morning, good afternoon, or what have you. Yeah. And now people will like deliberately move right out of your way or cross over the road. Maybe it's just me.

SPEAKER_01:

I was just I was just thinking the same. Not that it's you, I was thinking it was me, and I was thinking it's because I've got a black dog and my dog's quite big, and I know that a lot of people do cross over because they don't necessarily want that that part the passing of the dogs can sometimes be problematic, especially when you've got a dog like mine who's who's 99% of the time joyful and lovely, and 1% absolute savage. So you don't know what you're gonna get. So I what it I think his reputation precedes him sometimes, and people just go, Oh, it's that black dog, I'll cross over. But yeah, I think if it's happening, you're finding that as well, and your dog is not like that at all.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, that might be into something even without the dog, I think people seem just reluctant to cope past strangers closely. And yeah, and the other thing also is that when you're out and about, and I find this with running, people have got the headphones in most of the time, so they can't even hear you. So I don't find that really weird because I want I do I want to say hello to everybody and and smile, and I mean if they want to chat and a cup of tea halfway through a run, I'm up for that as well.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, there are a lot of headphones, and there there are occasions where it's helpful to have headphones on, but you I mean, I see people walking the dog that have got headphones on all the time, and you get no not even eye contact, a smile, nothing from them, and I just think that's a bit sad because I think it's important that we have those little micro interactions.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, definitely, definitely. And I think that if you're out in nature, we're out on the beach or something, part of the connection is hearing, it's hearing the waves, it's hearing the birds, that sort of thing. I mean, I do know you know, don't get me wrong, sometimes I quite like a a podcast as I'm walking along, but actually, more often than not, and the same in the car, unless it's a really long journey, I'm sat in silence. I quite I quite like silence. I'm yeah, I'm happy with my own my own thoughts. So, yeah, that's just I love joy. So just a reminder, it doesn't have to be earned. We've we've talked about you don't have to earn joy, it is just it's just a God give and right, and uh you don't have to prioritize everybody else before your joy. No, absolutely not. Be the example. That's I mean, that's I think that's what we do as a as a job is to be the example to other women of what's possible. I hope that's what we do anyway. Yeah, me too. That people associate joy with guilt, or for like people feel guilty about being joyful. I think maybe when we know about all the horrible atrocities going on in the world, yeah, you can you can understand it. And I, from a like a personal point of view, sort of when you're going through grief. I was gonna say about that as well about grief, yeah. That you that there is a guilt in feeling joy, yeah. I can imagine. And it's that's a real kind of it's a weird old seesaw. Your only way out of that is obviously the person that you have lost would never want you to not be. In fact, they'd want you to be more joyful than ever.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so true.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, but I yeah, that's well, that one is such a weird one. Even sort of starting to smile again after grief was just the weirdest, weirdest feeling, definitely. And uh confuse joy with productivity. Like, why can't we have both? Yeah, why does it have to be one or the other?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, uh you can you can find joy in almost everything, I think, in a way. When you are doing the boring chores, there is when when people talk about mindfulness and talk about washing up, for example, and really being mindful of it, having a shower, being mindful of how the water feels on you, the soap, etc. Things like that, you can find joy in the mundane things, yeah. But we don't want to prioritize the mundane things in place of joy.

SPEAKER_00:

No, absolutely, no, hell no. That's I mean, the only way any cleaning is ever happening out of me is if Foo Fighters is on full blast.

SPEAKER_01:

Music is such a key one for bringing joy, yeah. You could be somewhere, you could be walking around town and pop into a shop and one of your favourite songs is playing, and it instantly changes your mood, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, definitely. I Tesco now have music playing. They never used to, did they? And they have it, they have it playing. That makes my experience ten I am singing, I literally sing around Tesco. I hate Tesco, I hate supermarket shopping. So um the fact that I can sing around it is is much, much better. Busting some myths. Let's bust some myths.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, let's let's do that. Joy requires a holiday. Well, holidays are lovely and they can be joyful, but they can also be really friggin' stressful.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yes, this is true. This is so true. Yeah, you don't need to go on holiday, or especially where we live, but anyway, you don't need to go on holiday to experience joy. It can be done anywhere, anywhere you like.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and then it doesn't have to be expensive. It's not a cost, you can't buy joy in the same as you can't buy happiness.

SPEAKER_00:

This is do you know what this is uh this is a whole thing on itself. The generation growing up now are such a like they buy things. What is the word I'm looking for? I don't know. I don't know either. I need more joy to wake my brain up. They they like they have to have this things, they buy things to kind of make themselves feel better, they have that like talking about validation. Everything arrives quickly, they they can't wait for stuff, and I just I think that that for them is somewhere lot like you have to buy things, so you have to buy things for pleasure, you have to go out for dinner for pleasure, whereas actually those gen those genuine moments of joy and pleasure aren't in things, no, or doing something, or often just with with your family around the around the table playing avocado smash. That that is where my joy is, particularly if we're playing with Mark or my mum.

SPEAKER_01:

I tell you what, joy isn't when you're sitting around the table playing Uno and you get out, you're the one that's left with a handful of cards, and your first score on Uno is over 200.

SPEAKER_00:

That is not joy, not for you, I bet it was for everybody else, though. Joy is not playing Monopoly with my key. That is not joy. We know what joy is not, it's not, no, absolutely, and it doesn't have to be productive, it doesn't you like you. I mean, it could be, yeah, but it doesn't have to be.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, but sometimes when you do something like tidy something up, it does bring you joy, doesn't it? It does when you tidy it all up and you're like you empty a drawer or something, then you go to open it, you're like, oh look how organized it is. Yeah, that is quite joyful.

SPEAKER_00:

I can go straight to the spatula that I want. Yeah, that's yeah, that's grown-up joy, that's adulting joy, adulting joy, but it but it is joy, yeah. It is so little things, 30 seconds of sunlight. Any to be honest, any sunlight at right now at the moment, any sunlight. Any sunlight, yes please. Yeah, belly laughing, yeah. There's nothing better, is there? Tears rolling down your cheeks, trying not to pee yourself for laughing, yeah. Love it, love it. We talked about music, didn't we?

SPEAKER_01:

While cooking, while you always put music on when I'm cooking, but I have to say I do really like Sarah Cox on Radio 2 when I'm cooking dinner. I do find her amusing and she always plays good songs.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, Kitty always puts Radio 2 on in the car. Yeah, because it the tunes are always really oh petting the dog.

SPEAKER_01:

I like it when Bowie comes up on the sofa in the evening. If I'm the only one in the front room, he won't do this when we're all in there or it's too busy. But if I'm just sat there on my own, everyone else is gone to bed or doing something else, he climbs up and he just lays across me and he puts himself in that position over there, their reindeer pulls up. Yeah, and he's just please, just please stroke me, mummy. Yeah. Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_00:

It's the best. They are such time-wasting join machines, yeah, they really are. Luna came. Um, I was having I was having a cup of coffee and reading my book in bed this morning, and she came up and she did exactly that. She's she she did a duvet dive, so she underneath the duvet, but then a head goes on my leg and just rests there, and then she starts snoring. And I just that's for me is just absolute joy as well. Uh, and even yeah, just things like having a shower or a bath, and here's the joyful bit without rushing, without being in a rush, that is nice, isn't it? Yeah, it is really nice when you can do that. But any of those things, like I don't know, like putting your makeup on, like blow-drying your hair, like choosing whatever you're gonna wear it with time, like as a luxury, is just lovely. And and but and we can create those moments of joy anytime. There's like we are in charge mostly of our timetable. So being able to do that is super important.

SPEAKER_01:

I'll tell you what is really fun when you're not in the adult brain and the weather is rubbish and it is raining, yeah, is if you have the correct footwear on, there is nothing more joyful than splashing in the puddles. Oh, you are so singing, singing in the rain.

SPEAKER_00:

Singing in the rain. It's just brilliant, isn't it? No, I agree. Dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun. I I have to say that pops into my head every time I'm splashing through. As long as long as you're in the right gear. Actually, no, I take that back. I did seven and a half kilometres the other day in the pouring rain.

SPEAKER_01:

Different, it's different.

SPEAKER_00:

By the top of the hill, I was not singing.

SPEAKER_01:

No, no, because you were soaked through. That's different.

SPEAKER_00:

It didn't work.

SPEAKER_01:

It is different, but I think I think playing more goes with hand in hand with joy as well.

SPEAKER_00:

You look at the kids with their welly boots or not, sometimes splashing in the puddles. They have like you can't keep them out of it. You're looking at them and you know that's where they're headed. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, if I've got my wellies on, I absolutely love it. You're you're totally right, and that again is it's cheap, it's easy, yeah, it's so so good. Super, super things, like yeah, going for a walk, anything, trying a new cafe, having a nice bit of cake. This was there is there is a joy associated with food, isn't there? Yeah, and there's nothing with that, it's a there's another balancing act, right? With that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, but if you're going to have like we went out a few weeks ago after choir, we went for you had a coffee, I had a tea and a nice cafe, and there's some really nice cakes there. So we had some cake, didn't we? Yeah. And there was no, we weren't I didn't feel guilty about that, did you? There was none of there was none of that. It was just, it was a really nice, joyful cup of tea and a piece of cake with a friend. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And actually, I think probably if it is not the norm to do things like that, to spoil yourself with with nice food, then that's the joy in it, isn't it? Whereas if this is something that you do all of the time, I imagine there's probably a maybe a guilt associated to it, or yeah, or it's just not special. Yeah. So uh yeah, so there's a that's a nice, nice balance. We talked about the social connection. Um I think that's huge for human beings to have that connection to laugh together, um, or just to women are pretty good at at chatting together, and I find that like getting together with my girlfriends, I find so joyful. Yeah. Like hours can go by, and we could I mean we probably haven't talked about anything relevant, but hours can be like, does it? It doesn't really matter. Yeah. Lovely. Or meeting up, you've you're meeting up with people that you haven't seen for a while. I've got two more people I need to book book play dates with. Yeah. And and you get to catch up with them like the last time you saw them, which could have been years and years ago. You have to schedule it, otherwise it doesn't happen. No, absolutely. But those and those bonds, and I think women again are better at it, aren't they? Than men I messaged the girls that I used to live with in uh Battersea when I was working at Chelsea and Westminster, and there are four of us that lived together. And Anya was sat on the sofa at home with the legs just up on the sofa, very comfortable, watching reruns of Sex in the City. And this is what we used to do what 20 years ago? 20 no more than that. Probably more than that, yeah. 26 years ago. Ouch. And and we went and saw the movie together. We met up in London, we went and saw the movie together. So I videoed Anya, much to her disgust, watching it and sent it to the girls, and then we had this sort of chat on messenger and just caught up. And it was just it was really warming. So super super important. I think our message is what brings you joy that you've quietly stopped doing.

SPEAKER_01:

I had this conversation this week with a client. Yeah. We were talking about what she was going to do to get moving. Yeah. And she's she came on the call, she said, Oh my god, Julie, I've bought a bike. I haven't ridden a bike since I was 11. It was so and she used the word joyful. So I went to the park. I was like a kid. Yeah. And she did the thing that you do with you put your legs out. She said, Oh my god, it was just amazing. And then I thought to myself, Well, she's 50. Why have I waited practically 40 years to do this when it's something that actually is really fun? Yeah. So yeah, what have you stopped doing that actually you you did you did enjoy or you know you enjoy, and you've just got too busy and let it go?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, 100%. So we challenge you, Julie and I challenge you to find one thing either you've stopped doing or yeah, that gives you joy and maybe maybe you feel guilty about it. I don't know. Do it this week. If you can do it right now, do it right now. And then come into the Facebook group and tell us what it is so that we can all relive this joy with you. You might give somebody an idea, they might go and it could be a whole joy ripple effect.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think you need to post the Ellen outtakes in the Facebook group.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. They literally make me cry to the point that I have to watch them again because I can't see because my eyes are all scrunched up. Bullyam, that's what we want, isn't it? Yes, I love it. Yes, have a joyful week. We'll see you next week. Thank you so much for joining us today. We love creating this for you. We'll be back next week with another great episode.

SPEAKER_01:

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SPEAKER_00:

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SPEAKER_01:

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SPEAKER_00:

You'll find all the links in the show. And if you haven't already, come and join us in our free Facebook group where we continue the conversation and you get to connect with like minded women. We'd love to welcome you in. Until next time, stay fabulous!