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Far 2 Fabulous
Sorry Not Sorry: Breaking Free from People Pleasing
Sorry Not Sorry: Breaking Free From People Pleasing
Episode 72
Have you ever agreed to something you didn't want to do, simply to avoid disappointing someone else? That uncomfortable feeling in your gut might be trying to tell you something important.
In this revealing conversation with wellness expert Melanie Flower, we unpack the deeply ingrained habit of people pleasing that so many of us struggle with, particularly in British culture where politeness often trumps authenticity. As women, we're conditioned from childhood to be accommodating, pleasant, and constantly available – a cultural expectation that can lead to serious consequences for our wellbeing.
Melanie shares powerful insights on recognizing the subtle signs of people pleasing in our daily lives: the dread when certain names appear on our phones, the elaborate excuses we craft rather than simply saying no, and the physical symptoms that emerge when we consistently override our own needs. "If you don't listen to your body whisper, you'll hear it when it screams," she explains, highlighting how ignoring these signals eventually leads to burnout, illness, and resentment.
The episode offers practical, transformative language tools to help reclaim your boundaries without feeling rude or defensive. Learn why saying "I won't" instead of "I can't" closes the door to manipulation, how phrases like "If I were you, I'd feel exactly the same" can validate others while maintaining your position, and why sometimes "no" truly is a complete sentence. We explore the profound difference these small linguistic shifts can make, alongside practical boundaries like separate work phones and defined working hours.
Whether you're a lifelong people pleaser or simply looking to strengthen your boundary-setting muscles, this conversation offers compassionate strategies to honor your needs while maintaining relationships. Your relationship with yourself is the foundation for every other connection in your life – isn't it time to make it a priority?
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Speaker 1:Let's dive in. Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Far Too Fabulous podcast. Catherine and I are here and we are joined by a special guest. Today we have Melanie Flower, who is based in Brighton and I have known for many, many years. In fact, we got to the age now where we don't even say how many years we've known each other, but we studied nutrition together, so a very long time ago Melanie's also qualified as a kinesiologist and a life coach and a sound healer. So she does these fabulous things on Brighton Beach, which I wish that we would definitely go, me and you if we live near.
Speaker 2:No, let's do it, let's go anyway, we should.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'd love to have you. Yeah, so they're fantastic. And today we're going to talk to her about people pleasing, which I know is a topic that she's very passionate about. Melanie, thanks for joining us today. Is there anything I missed out on that introduction?
Speaker 3:Oh, oh, I don't think so. No, it was a lovely introduction. Thank you, julie.
Speaker 1:Okay, so where do we start with the topic of people pleasing? I think understanding what it is first of all, and recognising it would probably be good it is.
Speaker 3:Um, you know what? I always think that the British are the worst people pleasers and I think that we are brought up to be polite and we're brought up that if you say you don't like something or you say no, that's being rude and I think I think it's changing. But I think there's a generation of us that have grown up being polite when you don't necessarily, which means you're not telling the truth. Yeah, that is a form of people pleasing. You want to come across as being nice even if you're not telling the truth. One of the ways you can recognize it is did I just say that out of politeness was, was it not what I really meant? Or sometimes you might feel dread about doing something or seeing something, but then you get. Then you go oh hello, yes, this is lovely.
Speaker 3:It's sort of I mean, that's an aspect of it like sort of, you know, wanting to come across as nice and kind. And then there's also, do you agree? To do too much for someone because you want to make sure that they like you. So you probably see a lot of that in your work, like women being what's the word? Not overwhelmed, overstretched, because you're just doing all the things for everybody. You've got no boundaries, and I think a lot of it is because we're not taught how to say no properly. We're not taught that you, that it's not rude to have a boundary or to say no, and then it's, it's.
Speaker 1:There's a nation of people pleasers here yeah, it's definitely that cultural thing, and you know it, because if someone bumps into you, you're the one that normally says sorry. And that is a cultural thing, isn't it? Yeah?
Speaker 2:it's so funny. Yeah, absolutely. I've got somebody I know from networking who has commented. She's from spain and she comments about the amount of times we apologize for things. Our own existence, completely not our fault.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah, totally, because you don't be. Yeah, because we're taught that it's rude and people will dislike you or think you are rude if you stand up for yourself or say hold on what's happening there. I didn't like that.
Speaker 2:I think this is particularly relevant to women.
Speaker 3:Oh, 100 percent. Yeah, like you get that, I was sitting in a dentist. This is sort of going a bit on a tangent here.
Speaker 2:We do tangent all the time.
Speaker 3:Carry on, sort of going a bit on a tangent here. I was sitting in the do all the time. Yeah, carry on. I remember I was in my dentist waiting room and this really lovely elderly gentleman said to me oh you look very sad, why aren't you smiling? And I was just like what men, uh, women, are trained to? Constantly have? A happy, bright face, smiley. It's that whole thing of all cheer up, love. It's because if you're not, if you're not like actively smiling and looking happy, you're a miserable old trout or you're this or you're that. So we have to be nice and happy and have a lovely smile on our faces the whole time. Yeah, and I guess that does sort of feed into people pleasing and wanting to look nice and not to be come across as miserable or moody or or stuck up. Know, all of those things apply to women who have boundaries. I mean, the tide is changing very slowly, isn't it? But yeah, there is all that root to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think boundaries is a big thing. We've both got sons that are doing GCSEs at the moment and I got dragged through every single quote of Macbeth the other over the weekend and what I was really interested in he wasn't interested in having this conversation at all with me, but was how the, how the witches and how Lady Macbeth, although probably were um slightly wicked and mean, how they were very forthright and they knew what they wanted and were completely demonised for this. And I'm sure that it is looked like Macbeth has been looked at from a feminist point of view, but I was just, I was really interested that it still isn't put. There isn't that discussion and and they're quite a, they're quite a forward school there was still not that discussion around it how these strong women have been utterly demonised, turned into witches, and you see that all the way through history, don't you? So let's control them and let's burn them at the stake before they get too big for their boots 100%.
Speaker 3:Keep them small. Yeah, that's a huge part of people pleasing. Why do you think it's people pleasing?
Speaker 1:why do you think it's changing? Why do you think you're seeing changes just like that sort?
Speaker 3:of old-fashioned language is becoming less acceptable, the whole don't cheer up love type thing. I think people are learning to say no a little bit. Do you think I'm? Do you think I'm kidding myself?
Speaker 2:no, I think that there's definitely um an awareness around now what we, what we have been taught. I hopefully we are, we're the generation that we're still. We've been brought up like that and we have got an awareness of it, so hopefully I mean I'm touching wood we've both got girls as well. Hopefully we are teaching those girls from the word go that we want them. Unfortunately, it makes them very hard to bring up because they say no to us all the time.
Speaker 1:She's always saying no, no her words. She says no. I'm not available for that.
Speaker 3:Well, that's a brilliant boundary but that is my, those are my words oh, yes, yes, I know it's bad when you hear your own words back, isn't it? But I've got a son and so I don't have a girl. Um, but the little girls, I know they're much more confident, assertive, um, you know they're not passive in the same way that I think we were told to be, and just stuff like the. You know the clothes that little girls wear, you know they. It's changing, isn't it like we used to have to have to wear impractical shoes and frilly socks and things like that, and you know they can stand up for themselves a bit more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is true.
Speaker 2:I think there is definitely the opportunity for them to be much more as a buzzword, but like authentically themselves, like they are allowed to, as in most circumstances, I think it's hard to know, isn't it as well, like in our kind of circles? I think that that's acceptable, that that children can be mostly what they want to be. However, sometimes when I think that the rest of the world thinks like me, I always get a horrible shock yes, no you're right, no. I don't know, but certainly in our circles. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we can't take a sample of the whole population? Can you really?
Speaker 1:No, I definitely think there is a bit of a shift in when we look at like our parents versus us and then our own kids. There is definitely a shift happening, I think. I think for, like my parents, especially my mum's side is that need to be responsible for everything and everybody.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:Plays into it and not asking for help and not letting anybody get involved with certain things. It's just like no, this is I, do this right.
Speaker 3:That side of things, I think, has changed down the generations yeah, I mean I grew up in both of my parents are very passive-aggressive and they would be always so the type of thing like they would, or especially my dad, would rather make an excuse not to do something than tell someone. Actually that doesn't work for me and I grew up immersed in that and didn't have the language or the tools to learn how to be authentic or to be honest without hurting someone's feelings, or to be honest without being rude. And I think that now that's actually why I got into people, uh, into like boundaries coaching and specializing in people pleasing, because I used to think it was really clever of me to come up with these great excuses which I didn't want when I didn't want to do something. I was like that's a really good one, they'll believe that that's and that won't hurt. You know, no one will know that I don't want to do it.
Speaker 3:And and you know I was very bad at giving or accepting criticism, that sort of thing. And then I did a course on assertiveness, because this course said you know, learn how to accept criticism with grace and learn, learn how to say no. And I thought that's yeah, I need that. It was so eye-opening just learning assertive language learning what to say and how to say no without pissing someone off. I just thought that more people need to know this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I suppose and I think if you do piss somebody off by saying no, then not taking it onto your self, like realizing and that's actually that's, that's their problem, that's not mine.
Speaker 3:Yes, and also those people who, uh often, will use guilt to manipulate. If you are a people pleaser, you're very susceptible to having guilt. There's usually there's usually a dynamic of one person or or in a family or in a group.
Speaker 3:The person who likes to use guilt to maybe manipulate, the more passive person, the person who is more prone to people pleasing and I would like to support that more passive person to be able to recognize when guilt is being used against them and how to deal with it, which is not always easy, because you can't just switch off guilt, but once you know what someone's doing, it's a lot easier to just go right, you're just giving me a guilt trip.
Speaker 1:Do you think there's lots of people that people please, and they don't even know?
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, yes, yes, because I don't think I realized what I was doing. You know when I would not be honest. You know, always, always, want to try and make sure that people liked me and didn't think ill of me. I had no idea, no, I just thought it was normal.
Speaker 1:What are the classic things that people would do that if we, if we said them now and then they realised, oh my goodness me, I'm a people pleaser. You've already said about making up elaborate excuses, so not to upset anyone.
Speaker 3:The classic thing you know, if, if, if you made a cake and I ate it, and I was oh, this is lovely oh lovely, really nice, and I thought it was revolting.
Speaker 3:You know, I think that's something that maybe we've all done, and there's a fine line of you know, of you don't want to be an arsehole and go this is disgusting cake, julie. But if you asked me for what my honest opinion was, you could kindly say do you know what? It's not actually my cup of tea, but I can see that you've put a lot of effort into it rather than going it's disgusting, so, um, but, but people don't know how to do that, and and so we're just like oh yes, very nice. Or there's, um, you know, volunteering to pick up other people's children, maybe because you feel, maybe because you feel sorry for the other person, or the other person is one of those guilt trippy people and you get manipulated into doing too much things that you don't want to do or you can't do.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, that's all right, I can bring your kids home, or stuff like that you think that doing too much is is like a bit of a sign that that people pleasing is is maybe a trait yes, and and sometimes I think a lot of high achievers do too much and you probably see it like they burn out and fatigue and that sort of thing, not necessarily people pleasing a single like trying to please a single person. They're sort of trying to um please themselves. Well, like they're not, they're trying to do it for show, so that people think good of them yeah how much I'm doing, when actually it's like no one cares.
Speaker 3:Yeah, making yourself ill, but yeah, doing too much is if it's affecting you negatively. You know some people thrive, I know. You know you have a really busy, fulfilling life, don't you? Julie?
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I also know that I do too much. I do know that I do too much and I load myself up and some of it is probably unnecessary.
Speaker 2:Right, I'm thinking about, like, my inability to say no. It's definitely definitely got to play into people pleasing there somewhere. It is definitely about not wanting to be not wanting to let somebody down, not wanting to appear rude, to be not wanting to let somebody down, not wanting to appear rude, not wanting to appear like I can't do everything because heaven forbid.
Speaker 2:Everybody knows that I can't do everything that'd be awful and yeah, I can, I can see those things all the way through, even if I'm aware of it. Sometimes I think you're still like, yes, yes, I can do that. And then afterwards you're like, oh, why did I say that?
Speaker 3:oh, okay, so you do regret it, you do.
Speaker 2:You do feel that you should have said no occasionally I'm not very good at missing out on things, so if there's actual things to be doing. Yeah, I'm not very good at missing out on things, but yeah, if I yeah, I mean it can feel really awkward feeling saying no to people.
Speaker 3:It's not nice, it's not something you can just switch on and be great at it. No part of this. If you're like a people pleaser who need lots, lots of help, you do have to go through a little bit of discomfort. At first you know not a lot, but you have to start flexing your no muscle and feeling that awkwardness and dealing with the response of the other person. And the best thing to do is, once you've said no, is then just to say nothing.
Speaker 3:Let it sit, don't start going oh but I might be able to help you next week. Or oh, I'm sorry, I feel so bad. Oh, actually I can. Oh, oh, no, I can't do the wrong thing, you know. You just have to stick to your guns, especially if you're dealing with a tricky character. You know someone who does like to ask too much, or someone, someone who you dread seeing. You know another. Another thing that I think some people might be able to identify with is like if you see your phone go and you see the name and you go, oh my god, and then you pick up the phone, you go hi and you let the person rant at you or do whatever you want to do. You know that that that feeling of dread when you have to go and see someone or speak to someone is a sign that you need to set a boundary.
Speaker 2:It's crazy, isn't it? And your time is your most precious resource, and that you just hand it away that readily is absolutely crazy.
Speaker 1:And then, of course, we celebrate this being over busy, don't we? You know, when you see someone, you say, oh, how are you doing? Oh, yeah, I'm so busy.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's great, it's not great when you really think about it, is it?
Speaker 3:That's great. Yeah, Exactly, and also how rest is demonised, isn't it? I was saying this to someone the other day like, even if you're lying on the sofa, if you hear the key go in the door, does anyone have that impulse to sort of jump up and go? Oh, I wasn't really lying down, you know I was doing something I am never lying down.
Speaker 1:This never happens.
Speaker 2:I know exactly, I do know exactly what you mean. And we and I mean we celebrate Nana naps in our house. We love a disco nap in our house. And still, if somebody comes in that feeling even if I don't get up, that feeling that either I should get up, or if my husband comes into the room and I'm watching television or something, that I need to make an excuse as to why or justify that I've worked really, really hard or I've only just sat down, Exactly. Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:I've only just sat down, I have the time I've just sat down, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, there's some serious conditioning that not working is lazy, isn't there?
Speaker 1:Goodness me, what are we going to?
Speaker 2:do about this? It's crazy, isn't it? I know I'm thinking about people that it's like part of their identity as well, isn it? And if they weren't there running around after other people, what would they? What?
Speaker 3:would they?
Speaker 2:do and I can, as I'm saying that, I can think of like two or three people in my head that that's, that's the part of their identity yeah, yeah, I can too, and it's.
Speaker 3:It's very hard, isn't it, to have that taken away, like I'm just thinking about my mum, because she spent her whole life running around after everybody. She was always busy, always busy, couldn't sit down, and then obviously I left, you know, her friends dispersed and she was just left with nothing, and it was, you know. She became quite unwell, having just no purpose.
Speaker 2:It's important to create that for yourself, isn't it, rather than just be serve other people the whole time yeah, you're so right, absolutely yeah, when you take all of those other people out of the equation and then suddenly you're left with you, and if you've got no relationship with you, you're just like well, what now and then?
Speaker 1:we know that it's not just that fitting in or, you know, being uncomfortable. There is direct relationship between these, these behaviors and then your well being. Like you said, your mum became unwell. Just thinking about Dr Gabor Mate's work, I think what's his book called? The Body Says no. He talks a lot about the impact of people pleasing on your, on your health, in a direct way with stress response and your levels of self-worth, and it can be really detrimental, can't it?
Speaker 3:massively and one of the things that I would do with my clients is because very often people don't know whether what they should do, or whether it's a no or whether it's a yes. But I always say, your body will tell you. You know, if you're going into a situation and you're dreading it or that thing with the phone. You know when you see someone's name and you're like, oh god, it's, like that is a sign. Your body will tell you the feelings that you get.
Speaker 3:And sometimes you know it's difficult to distinguish between, like good fear and, you know, pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, because one thing I'm prone to is saying no too much and you stay small. You never, you never push yourself out of your comfort zone. And I think the way to distinguish that is is this fear about something I'm going to do, but I know that it's good for me, or am I not really sure if this is good for me or actually I don't think this is good for me? And then you know whether you're just pushing yourself out of your comfort zone or if it's actually something you're really not interested in. But yeah, the body is a quite a reliable barometer and, yeah, it will lead to physiological health problems if you repeatedly override your body's signals when it's telling you to say no. What's that amazing phrase? If you don't listen to your body whisper, you're hear it when it screams, you have to deal with it.
Speaker 1:When it screams, yeah. Yeah, that is a really really good saying, actually, because it's so true, isn't it? And I think you can, just you, we talk a lot about habits and things, don't we? You can get into the habit of acting in this way and then you can totally disregard your natural, your body's natural cue, you start to not hear them and then it literally does. Your body will do something really dramatic to make you listen. I mean, I always find this with myself because I'm I do too much, I will get ill, as in my body will put me in bed, right so, and it will be from like the day before I was like training at gymnastics or something, and then the next morning I can't get up, and it's almost like my body will say to me yeah, you've been doing too much. Again, I've been giving you a few little niggles, you've ignored me, so I'm just going to give you some horrid virus now and you're just going to stay in bed for a few days and you're going to have to deal with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, are you like that?
Speaker 2:it's so true, though, yeah, that is so true, it absolutely floors you. It's like you're not listening, so I'm gonna take over. Yeah, it's the. The other saying is if you don't make time for wellness, you have to make time for illness, or something like that.
Speaker 3:It just takes over and like you know, fatigue is a reliable indicator that something isn't right. Yet how many people push on, don't go to bed early and get plenty of sleep and just live their lives tired. It's like your body is telling you that you need to rest. You know, that's a sign that we can all identify with.
Speaker 2:Everybody constantly says oh, I'm so tired, I'm so tired isn't it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I saw something the other day that like we're getting an hour's less sleep than we would have done 100 years ago and children are getting 85 minutes less sleep than they would have done 100 years ago, and children are getting 85 minutes less sleep than they would have done 100 years ago, which is I'm not surprised.
Speaker 3:No, I'm not like, because, yeah, because we have electric lighting, we can stay up as long as we want and you know, sleep is for me, is the best medicine, I think, for everything yeah, yeah, I, I agree, I'm.
Speaker 1:I always prioritize my sleep, don't I and you don't, and we always have this conversation about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, more and more now. I mean I value it, I know, I know its value. Yeah, it's a work in progress with me Again, but this is a learned behavior from years of going to sleep late and that just being totally, totally normal with me and my mum and my sister, and still, like my mum messaged me last night, I am like 11 o'clock most nights is my absolute cut off. I live. I hear Julie talking to me about my liver. I make sure that I put it to bed before 11 o'clock. Yeah, but my mum messaged me at like 25 past 11 last night and then I only saw it this morning. I'm proud of you. It's down in my.
Speaker 2:I don't have my phone with me, it's always down in the office. I couldn't be trusted. There was just no possible way I have the self-control not to be on back on the phone. Oh, I've just remembered I didn't look at this. Oh, I just need to do that. So, no, it has to be away. Now I'm more aware of it. I'll, if I'm speaking to my mum, for instance, and I'll say something about well, why don't you just go to bed? And she'll be like, oh no, it's only half past 10, so it's completely and she's conditioned herself, yeah, yeah yeah, but yeah, so it's, it's, and I've probably I've done the same to my children.
Speaker 2:Mark's very good at going to bed. In fact, you'll be like there for an hour going where's, where's. Mark gone and he would have been in bed gone he just doesn't announce it, he just disappears. Yeah and yeah, so hopefully they've. They've got a bit of that as well. Yeah, yeah that's good.
Speaker 1:I think the wording is going to be interesting because, like you said, when you're saying no, it's uncomfortable and you don't want to become. You know you don't want to be rude, you don't want to piss people off. I felt that discomfort.
Speaker 2:When you were talking about like being assertive, or like with your course that you learned how to do it, I felt uncomfortable in my body, did you? Yeah, I was like oh no, I don't want to say no to anybody. Your physical reaction if people could see you, that is so funny.
Speaker 1:You're like you. I can see you're uncomfortable sitting on that, just on that stool.
Speaker 2:You're uncomfortable being in those clothes right now, thinking about maybe saying no yeah, no, in that when you were talking about like in your stomach, like if you're, if you're excited or if you're like I can, I can feel like whether my gut wants to just drop, or whether it's got butterflies, or yeah, I think my gut's probably very talkative, it likes to let me know. But yeah, having to have that, that uncomfortable conversation to set your boundaries is certainly there's, certainly not something we've ever been taught.
Speaker 3:No, I love working out good ways of saying no now, because I mean we don't want to hurt someone's feelings, so I'm always trying. I'm it's a work in progress, but I'm always trying to help my son, um, be assertive. He's certainly got some work to do because he's prone to being a little bit passive and, you know, sort of being sort of not subservient but being second place to people who have more aggressive styles of communication. And I always say you need to be as honest as you can be, whilst trying to minimise hurting someone's feelings, because you don't want to just say you look awful in that dress. You want to say do you know what? I think the blue colour is really nice, but it needs to be a bit longer.
Speaker 3:There's always ways of saying no without being rude. It's always possible. I think the only ways we've probably had it modeled are maybe in anger or rude. Well, I speak for myself, um, in anger or rudeness, because what people pleasers tend to do is they tend to veer towards a more passive, aggressive style of communication. So they'll be like, yes, yes, everything's fine, everything's fine, and any resentment or anger or all those no's tend to build up and sometimes they can explode.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah, and just and just have a massive no, I told you I didn't want to do that you always do this to me and all you know, a huge argument might ensue because it just it just bottles up, and certainly that's often the way that people do have no's and boundaries modeled to them. Um, again, I speak for myself, but I don't, I don't. I think it is quite common and we need to learn how to not get to that place by honoring ourselves, tuning into what we do actually want and saying no fairly kindly, without hurting people's feelings and it doesn't always work, you know. Sometimes people will be miffed or upset and then it's sitting with the discomfort of that and knowing that you've honored yourself rather than honoring somebody else's feelings which is the tricky bit but I think language is like words are really powerful, aren't they?
Speaker 1:and language? I think with the younger, especially with the younger ones now, I think they're losing some of that ability with language a bit, because they shorten things they used to messaging. They don't know the context when they receive a message, which I think is really sad. But the power of language, like I, when I was doing the brain, psychology stuff, there was a couple of things that stood out for me which I use all the time. So one was with the dog. So we've got a very excitable dog and so initially I was always felt like I was apologizing for him because he's just so excitable. But I changed the wording and the difference in people's response was really interesting. So instead of running after him when he's run off because he's seen someone he likes to look of and he's all over them and their dog Me going oh I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I changed it to I get over there and I say thank you so much for your patience. He's such an excitable dog and you see the change in people because I've thanked them.
Speaker 1:So that's, amazing yeah, so not saying sorry when you're not sorry really yeah yeah, it's.
Speaker 1:thank you for your understanding. And the other one was if somebody's really upset or riled about something and you just say, if I was you I would feel the same, yeah, because if you were, then you would feel the same. Yeah, and it diffuses things Because then you can say, but blah, blah, blah, I'm going to do this, or whatever. It's so interesting, the power of words. So when you're looking at saying like if you're somebody listening now and you're thinking, oh, my goodness me Mel has just described how I am with everybody do they start to make changes? And what sort of words would you use when you do need to say no, but you don't want to hurt someone?
Speaker 3:yeah, I mean there's the phrase that no is a complete sentence, so they can just say no, you don't need to give a reason, um, which can feel so uncomfortable. You know you feel like you need to make sure that they really know why I can't do it. But you have to, uh, tune in. What I usually do with my clients is we go through loads of different phrases to see what fits like no and I always say you know what feels good, what could you actually say? No, I'm not going to make it.
Speaker 3:What is really important is to not use the word can't. I can't come because it's telling the other person that you do want to do what they've suggested or whatever it is. But there's something that's stopping you. Like, oh, I can't come because I can't get a babysitter. Oh, don't worry, my daughter will babysit for you. You have to. That's, you have to. You have to be honest, so I won't be able to make it. Or not, like I can't have another piece of cake. I don't eat cake. It's just closed down. It's it's. There's no room for negotiation. You've said what you um want to say. Um, without there's no, there's less danger of you being talked around. So can't is a word that you really try, need to try and stop using. Um, I mean, sometimes there's no other alternative, but I won't, and I don't are much more. They land a a lot better.
Speaker 3:Because I think what people pleasers often suffer with is, especially with tricky people is the being talked around. It's like, oh God, I didn't want to do it but you know I had to in the end because they just persuaded me. It's naughty of the other people because they're not respecting your boundaries, but it's because they know that you can be talked around is why they try and talk you around. So if you don't want to offend someone or you don't want to appear rude, just try and be honest, say do you know what?
Speaker 3:I just need that night. I can't come, I won't come, I won't be able to make it, I've reserved that evening for self-care. You know people think that they have to have a reason, a really good excuse, for not doing something, when actually you can just say I don't want to do it because I want to sit in my house on my own and do nothing. There's better ways of saying that, like, yeah, I need to honor my energy levels or I prioritize my sleep, or things like that. You're putting yourself first and putting that across to the other person, rather than saying I just don't fancy you or something like that.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of this plays into what you were saying earlier about the fact that people don't actually know what they want. So if they've not got and and and again that connection with with themselves, so if they don't know themselves, they don't know what they want, they might just keep saying yes because they don't, they don't know what else to do and they don't have that choice to say no because I'm going to, I'm going to prioritize myself. They just they don't know what they want, so they just keep I don't know, almost like filling the void with other things, yeah, and a lot of that.
Speaker 3:I mean, you probably know this starts in childhood. Often, um, if you have an overbearing parent that tells you what you want, or tells you what you want to do and doesn't allow you to have an opinion, doesn't. Or if you do have an opinion, it's like no, don't be so silly, or you know, um. And then, as an I see with my clients, that turns into adults who don't know what they want or you know, oh, should I do that? I don't know. Was that the right thing to do? Constantly seeking advice, constantly asking other people what they should do, because as a child they will have had all their opinions and their wants either belittled or just told what they should and shouldn't be doing, or just told what they should and shouldn't be doing. But you know, that's one of those things that we try and break the generational patterns, if we can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it takes a lot of work to unravel all the things that happened in our childhood, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, then we get to repeat that to our children as well, and they can go through the same therapy as we have.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know, I know it's such a worry, isn't it? You think you're doing your best and I think oh my god he's. I can just hear him saying to some therapist in the future, like, well, my mum was always this and she kept going on about this and you know, and I never felt I could but hopefully not.
Speaker 1:We can only try our best with the current information that we've got right. I'm sure we're all doing a great job. Yes, we are yes, we are so if somebody is thinking right, I'm gonna start to say I don't or I won't, yeah, and they get some comeback from, especially if it's like saying to a close family member oh wow, yeah. How do you then like, how do you advise your clients when you're going through scenarios like this, when they've done that and they're feeling like that's actually come out of my mouth?
Speaker 1:I've said that now that's good yeah, but then they get that comeback from whoever that family or a close friend, whoever it is. What. How do you then advise them to keep pushing forwards with this change? Because that I could imagine that initially, when you start, you might say it and then think I shouldn't have said that yeah, and it will feel gross.
Speaker 3:It absolutely will, you know. But um, that doesn't mean it's wrong, it just means you've stepped out of your comfort zone. So when you get come back which you will, because the people are used to you always saying, yes, you know, and very often it's like, oh, you've changed, you know you're not the same it's like, no, I'm not, I've started to stand up for myself. But when you get come back, you have to use a validating phrase like I can see that that's a really difficult situation for you. Or, yeah, I can, I can, I can, like you were saying if I, if I were you, I'd feel exactly the same. So something that they feel seen and validated, an empathy statement. Yeah, I can understand that that's quite hard. Or I can understand that that feels really awkward for you. And then you say, however, I won't be able to help you move house at the weekend. Or, however, we're not going on holiday with you this year. I was trained that, however, is better than but.
Speaker 1:I think it is actually when you think about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think, but always means that what you've said before the but isn't true. Yeah, however, and then you repeat it, because if you go back on what you've said, you're just training the other person to just be persistent with you, because you'll always change your mind and they can get what they want yeah, and I think it'd be interesting.
Speaker 2:It's interesting to remember also that when you're using this language and you're going I understand how you feel and I'm still going to not do whatever it is that you want me to do that you realize that it's for you. It's not actually like you're. You're almost kind of creating that safety for you.
Speaker 3:It's not that you're trying to make it softer for them, almost yes, exactly, and I think recognizing how much energy you put into making sure the other person's feelings are OK at the expense of your own can be a bit of a light bulb moment and can be the motivation to start to stop doing that and to start honouring yourself Especially if you've got health niggles and things like that and that can be a bit of a wake up call, like I need to. I need to start putting myself first.
Speaker 1:There will be some recalibration with the people around you who aren't used to you doing that and the discomfort you'll feel when you start doing it and then what will be the benefits of having done that, that you would start to see, like you've been through this process, what were the benefits that you started to see, would I mean?
Speaker 3:a just the benefit. One of the benefits is it just gets easier and easier, and I did have a client who was just like I love it, I'm saying no to this, and I didn't work late and I said I don't answer the phone to my cousin anymore and this and this and this, but you just what, you can have more time sometimes. Your, your health can improve if you start to put boundaries around things that you know aren't great for you, like maybe drinking or eating certain things, or like making more time for exercise. Um, but I think it's just a sense of a sense of confidence or empowerment, really, rather than being the person who is who's who other people are making decisions for really.
Speaker 1:So for me that would be the benefit is empowerment and feeling like, yep, I've said what I truly felt yeah, one of the things that I did a while ago that had such an impact that I couldn't believe that I've been doing this for so long and just ignoring it was that I used to work with consultations in the evening and on the weekend, because I would have people that wanted to book in a consultation and they'd say what? But I'm working all week, so I need an evening or a Saturday appointment and I used to do that initially I think it's a very common therapist thing to do and then, I don't know, something clicked in my brain because what would happen is that if I saw someone book in on an evening or a weekend, I would get that feeling that you described. I'd be like, oh God, dread.
Speaker 3:Do you know what, julie? I actually remember you telling me a story about this, and you said that one day a lady booked in in the evening evening which you don't like doing, I don't like doing it either and she came to the appointment. She said oh, I took the day off work today. And I remember you saying, right, that's it, I'm not doing this anymore. I mean, yeah awful.
Speaker 1:How annoying, yeah, yeah, and I just thought to myself like the other thing that I've done only recently, which has also been absolutely massive, is that I've now got a different phone number for my business, and the trigger for that was that I had clients messaging me. I had a message on Christmas Eve and it pings on your phone and this is my only. This was my only phone, so I am using my phone like everybody else does, and it started to make me feel sick that I'd seen the message come up and I would not open it because it was like it's Christmas Eve. I'm not opening that, but I'd be aware of it, and so after Christmas I I'd actually had my other phone before, but there were still some clients that had that my personal number, yeah, and in January I just messaged everybody and said this is, this is my work number.
Speaker 1:I'm moving you across yeah and just the relief of it is, yeah, it's so huge. It seems like such a little thing, but I think and I do it as well without thinking sometimes it'll be like a Sunday. I'm doing nothing, I'm like, oh, I need to sort out whatever it is, I'll just message them and I'll say you don't need to reply now. But that's actually not good of me, because I know that that person would have got that message on their day off and it's not fair. But I think that person should have boundaries. It's not up to you. Oh, that's actually not good of me, because I know that that person would have got that message on their day off and it's not fair. But I think that person should have boundaries. It's not up to you. Oh, that's true actually, yeah, so they should have a phone like me, that exactly, and they didn't put it until Monday exactly like that.
Speaker 3:It's not my fault. If they read it, then that's them not having a work, a work boundary. I know, once you see something, you can't unsee it, but you know how they, if they publicize their own personal number, it's not your responsibility to see it. But yeah, but you took control of your boundaries, which?
Speaker 1:is brilliant because you can just leave the phone switched off yeah, you're right, it wasn't even my client's fault, it was my fault that I'd allowed my access to my personal number and so, yeah, it's. But that changed. So not working evenings and the weekends. And then this change in that's my work number and, and I've got into the habit now of closing the door to my office at the end when I'm finished work. Close the door, don't go back in there until the next day. That's fantastic little things that make a difference.
Speaker 3:But we train people how to treat us. Often, often clients would say to me they should just know.
Speaker 1:They should just. Why are they doing this to me?
Speaker 3:they should just know it's like no, you have to tell people, you have to show them how to treat you. If you accept poor behavior or being treated badly, that's on you. You're the one to put up a boundary. Other people will just come as close as they possibly can until they get pushed back where you have the boundary, where you, how much you accept, is up to you that's really interesting, isn't it?
Speaker 2:so when someone you consider is displaying bad behavior towards you, it's actually you, you're. You should empower yourself to either change that behavior by by how you respond, or you or you decide how you're going to feel about that behavior. But either way, the ball is in your court.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes indeed.
Speaker 2:Because I guess another trait of somebody that is a people pleaser is that it would be somebody else's fault. It was their fault that they pushed it on me, it was their fault that they behaved like that, rather than it was my fault for accepting that or not saying something.
Speaker 3:Yeah, true, Blame is a passive-pass communication style. Rather than taking responsibility, which which is assertive, to say yeah, I did have a part to play there, I will rectify it, rather than go well, why did you do that? You know it's your fault and moaning about other people.
Speaker 2:I mean it's, it's scary and it's annoying, um, but it's also quite empowering, isn't it? Can I just go back to that? Notifications like you're saying about notifications, I think that my certainly my children's generation now are so like there's notifications for everything and there is an expectation that they have to respond the minute that they get that, and that drives me insane. Just because somebody has sent me a message does not mean that I have to answer it there. And then, even if they can see that I've read it, it's still up to me when and if I reply, and it drives me nuts. They've got this whole. Oh, they left me on read, or something like that. I think the phrase is yeah, left me on read. Yeah, that means that someone's read it and they haven't responded. And again, it's this whole politeness thing, isn't it?
Speaker 2:that we've been brought up with, but I feel like it's gone a little. I feel like it's gone a little step further with, especially with notifications and messages I blame amazon.
Speaker 1:Amazon like next day delivery. Now it's the same day delivery, it's instant anytime yeah, I blame amazon. Yeah, for everything, for everything yeah, they've just made it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, convenience is part of the problem, isn't it? That we're just all expecting everything instantly, and it's like that when you, um, if someone sees that you've read a message and it's like, and you don't respond instantly, it's like, oh my god, they must be in a mood with me, they must be angry with me no, they're just doing something else at the moment exactly, but I mean a lot of people I know have that you can't see if they've read it or not no, that's me.
Speaker 3:I have that on mine, yeah which I get you know, it's, it's much more. Do you find that quite?
Speaker 1:freeing. Yeah, I do, I love it, I'm just yeah it because it takes away the pressure on me to instantly respond as well. Yes, because they can't see that I've read it, but you can't see if people have read your messages. Can you? No, I can, oh, can you? Yeah, because I've read it, but you can't see if people have read your messages. Can you? No, I can, oh, can you yeah.
Speaker 3:Because I thought I was going to do it, but I thought, no, I can't. I can't give up seeing if people have read my things or not.
Speaker 1:It's only done the other way around. Oh, interesting there you go. That's a boundary you can put up seeing your phone. Don't ask me how to do it, though, because I don't know how to do this tech stuff.
Speaker 2:That's interesting, that you don't want to give up, knowing that they've read your message, though, as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah it is. But I do find that quite useful, because sometimes you might think, well, I don't even know if the person knows about this, you know, if it's something time sensitive as well, I mean thinking about it. If I don't think that they've even looked at it yet, I'm like, oh well, they don't even know this piece of information. Do I need to pursue it?
Speaker 1:cut the phone.
Speaker 3:Speak to the person I know I've turned into one of those people that hates phoning, though, like I'm just email all the way.
Speaker 2:I don't like an email, I like a voice note. Oh, yeah, do you? Yeah, I don't. I'm terrible with emails, really really bad with emails, do you know? So my daughter took full advantage of this the other day because she had I found out literally the night before that she had this end of year show. And just as I was going to bed she went oh, I think Emma emailed you the details. And I was like, oh, that's crafty, because I've got like 10,000 emails I don't know where. But she knew she knew that I would never have looked at the emails. I was like, really. So I called her bluff and I turned up with the entire family oh, she didn't want you to go as a group. They kept it quite quiet and it was the teachers that were then telling us like that it was going on. Yeah, I didn't even realize it was a like a proper show.
Speaker 1:I don't know why she didn't want me to go but, uh, oh, I love a school show, so we're gonna use the phrase I won't. I don't. However, yeah, and we are going to set our boundaries with our work phones and our work times.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's so, so beneficial. I like that no is a complete sentence. Yeah, no, it's a complete sentence because you are.
Speaker 3:You're desperate to say something else after that on you yeah, and if it's someone you know well, sometimes you do feel it's just too weird just to say no. You do need to give them a little bit of context or whatever otherwise isn't it no, yeah I love. If I were you, I'd feel exactly the same. That's what I'm taking here yeah it's a good one.
Speaker 1:It works very good all the time things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really good that one, and just don't trade your self-worth for somebody, for somebody else, for what? Yeah, don't trade what you want over or under what somebody else wants exactly exactly that is the I would seriously love to continue this conversation in the facebook group.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, just be interesting to hear people's different scenarios, like I've said, about mine with the work and and that kind and the difference that's made. It'll be really interesting to see if, if people are hang a minute, that's what I'm doing, I need to change that, or I change this and this is what happened, or yeah, it'd be really really good, yeah, and if you're not sure, just come in and say do you, do you think this is?
Speaker 2:am I? Am I people pleasing? I imagine if you've got to ask the question, the probably the answer is yes, but exactly yeah where do people find you?
Speaker 1:now, my website is melanieflowercom.
Speaker 3:I do uh. I had a big break from boundaries coaching but I missed it. I missed it so much. So I do offer uh, just completely ad hoc, one hour sessions if you want to talk something through or come up with some good phrases or work through your boundaries. Yeah, I do one hour sessions which you can find online.
Speaker 2:I love that. What do you normally do then, mel? What's your like, your, your bread and butter, day-to-day stuff?
Speaker 3:now, well, at the moment, um, I run sound healing events and now it is uh sunny, I do them out on the beach, but I do like little mini retreats, two and a half hour events, um, where we have sound healing and then we do something else nice, like some rituals round of fire. Or I have a beautiful venue that I use which has a natural swimming pool and a sauna, so we just do it's stunning lovely things. Yeah, it's, it's so amazing, it's so lovely. So, yeah, I do afternoons of loveliness, how lovely.
Speaker 1:And so this, dear listeners, is things you say yes to indeed, yes, yeah, and we should definitely go to brighton and do that I love brighton.
Speaker 2:I I was sad that arnia didn't go to university there. I thought that that would be a good, arty place to be, but London it is, yes, but we will come to Brighton. Amazing, we should do that Well.
Speaker 1:thank you very much for being with us. Thank you for having me. Thank you.
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