Far 2 Fabulous

Empowering Women to Navigate the Menopause Industry

• Julie Clark & Catherine Chapman • Episode 41

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Ever wondered why natural menopause remedies are often overshadowed by pharmaceutical interests? Our latest episode promises to unravel this mystery as we gather in Julie's cozy living room to watch the BBC Panorama episode "The Menopause Industry Uncovered." We explore the ancient wisdom of treatments like sage, pondering why these age-old remedies are frequently ignored in mainstream research. By highlighting the complexity of the endocrine system and the significance of understanding individual hormonal balances, we emphasize the importance of a holistic approach to managing menopause symptoms.

Navigating the labyrinth of Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) reveals a complex web of conventional advice and personalized care. We delve into the nuances of recommended dosages, questioning long-held medical guidance and advocating for more research focused on women's health. Through personal stories and expert insights, we discuss the importance of taking an active role in healthcare decisions. We also address the controversies surrounding menopause treatment clinics, like those at Louise Newson's, and argue for a balanced perspective that integrates lifestyle, nutrition, and medical support.

Our conversation crescendos with a call to action, empowering women through hormone education and community building. Reflecting on how hormonal changes affect well-being, we stress the need for comprehensive education for both women and men. By sharing personal experiences with HRT, we aim to foster a network of informed and empowered women. We invite you to join our mission by subscribing to our podcast, providing reviews, and connecting with us on social media to help us reach a thousand women in our first year. Let's build a vibrant women's health community together.

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to Far Too Fabulous hosted by Julie and.

Speaker 2:

Catherine, join us on a mission to embrace your fabulousness and redefine wellness. Get ready for some feistiness, inspiration, candy chats and humour as we journey together towards empowered well-being. Let's dive in Hello, hello and welcome back to this week's episode of Far Too Fabulous, and we're doing something slightly different. Today. We're in a different place. We're actually in Julie's living room in front of her television, because so many people I don't know about you, julie have asked me if I've seen the menopause program on Panorama and what I thought about it. My answer has been no, I haven't seen it, and I and I think my answer is the same as julie's why haven't you seen it yet, julie?

Speaker 1:

well, I I feel like I should have watched this because it's been discussed in my nutritionist group and lots of people have asked me about it. But I've got a feeling that it's going to make me angry and I had to be in the right frame of mind, so I couldn't watch this program after a busy day. I just hadn't got round to it because I was waiting to be in the right frame of mind to be angry or objective, so it.

Speaker 2:

so, instead of waiting for it to be in the right frame of mind, we've stuck a microphone in front of both of us. So the plan is that we are going to press play now and watch it and then, when we've got stuff to say, we are going to jump on the microphone and say it. So enjoy.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think it might be worth people having watched this episode themselves so that they know where we're coming from as well. So it's the BBC Panorama, the menopause industry uncovered episode that went out a few weeks ago. Ok. So we're about what? Five minutes in? Not even that, not even that. Ok.

Speaker 1:

So the first thing that I want to say that's kind of made me annoyed is that they've gone to this centre for evidence-based medicine and they're going to look at these products as part of my work. A lot of it is evidence-based medicine and we research stuff and we use scientific papers. But on the flip side of this, one of the things that really annoys me is that a lot of natural products haven't got scientific papers because there's no benefit to the pharmaceutical industry in studying them, and that's where we don't have all of the scientific evidence for, say, for example, sage. Sage is a natural product. We know how it works on the body because women have used it for years and years and years in Chinese medicine, in Ayurvedic medicine, but we haven't got the scientific studies because there is absolutely no benefit to the pharmaceutical companies to study that. And where does the funding come from for all these scientific studies? It's coming from the pharmaceutical industry, so that's annoyed me straight off, really interesting is it?

Speaker 2:

because sage is available wherever. So, yeah, they can't. They can't charge you for it, so there's of no benefit to saying that it works. And I suppose also on the flip side of that, if, if you're using sage, maybe you're not using any of the other supplements and lotions and potions that they want to provide to you.

Speaker 1:

Exactly. And the other thing is that the lovely group of women at the start, the group from Scotland that are clearly having lots of issues, and the lady said I've spent £150 a month on supplements. Has she had some help with knowing what she actually needs? Yeah, does she know what mechanisms are happening in her system? Where was she when her hormone started to change? Was her diet poor? Was she not exercising? You know all of these things. Did she already have a problem with anxiety and the hormone imbalanced, exaggerated, that? There's so many things, yeah, that you could look at. It's not just a case of picking off the shelf oh, this is for hot flushes. Oh, this is going to help my anxiety.

Speaker 2:

That's not how anybody in my profession would work anyway that's not what we were doing and I'm hoping that this is not going to be. Let's look at what tablets work and what tablets don't work, as opposed to, if we are going to use supplements and supports and hormone therapy, how this is going to fit into our lives and that we're not just looking for a quick fix, because often these symptoms are exacerbated by the fact that we're not eating properly, that we're not moving and we're not looking after ourselves.

Speaker 1:

No, exactly. And you can't just put one or two things in or even 50 things in and expect that to work when you don't understand the mechanisms behind it. You need to understand your hormone levels. You need to understand how those hormones work in your body, because we're not just talking about oest estrogen and progesterone, which is probably what they're going to talk about on this program. You've got a whole orchestra of hormones in the endocrine system that are all working together, and if estrogen is the trumpet section, you can't just go and chuck a load of trumpets in and expect the orchestra to suddenly sound better. You know that's not how it works. So and then, on the supplement side of things, they're going to look at things like the quality. Yep, I'm all for that. I I only ever use supplements or recommend supplements that are of high quality, and there is such a big difference between going to the supermarket and buying one of those off-the-shelf menopause supplements versus the type of supplements that a professional would would use.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and you've done a whole episode on that, so do go back and look at the uh, the supplements episode. And just in case you think I'm whining as julie is speaking in the background, bowie, the dog has come on the sofa and joined us to watch, but he's very interested, aren't you?

Speaker 1:

bowie in the.

Speaker 2:

He's got a lot to say about the menopause situation too so if you hear moaning and tip tapping and tails wagging, bowie has come to join us right, let's continue and see what they've got to say.

Speaker 1:

All right, they've got julie. She's hit pause again. The thing is is that we're now at the part where they're talking about the various supplements and the first two. I actually don't know those brands. Dr vegan is something that I've heard of, but I haven't personally used. It's not one that I generally recommend. It's not one that I generally recommend. It's not one that I've researched or looked at, but one of the things on doctor, was it dr vegan that had the study? Yeah, they looked at, so they went on to the website and it says that was it 89 of people taking that supplement and had some relief from relief, yeah from symptoms.

Speaker 1:

So they're discrediting it because they're saying that that was their own survey, that they did.

Speaker 1:

But the thing is is that this happens all the time across all different industries and we were talking about the Dove advert because that is a classic one of them surveying their own people that have used the Dove product and then giving a percentage of you know, 75% of women that they surveyed and it's normally quite a small group said that it improved this, that and the other. So I feel like you can't let one industry do it and not another. And, as people in business ourselves, we were saying like if Catherine had a you you know you do like a vitality day and you had 10 people there and you surveyed them afterwards and nine people said it was fantastic and the food was great and they had a really good time, and one person didn't. You've still got 90% of people at that event had a positive effect. So therefore, that's what you would say, wouldn't you? 90% of people that came to the day had a great day, loved the food, really benefited from it. So I don't see that there's such an issue with this.

Speaker 2:

No, what my issue was, what was making me more and more angry, is the fact that. So the Dr Vegan one you're talking about was 20 quid a month, which is, we thought, relatively reasonable for like nutritional supplements and help with that, and I I probably spend that and more sort of now without having to.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, me too. I spend more than that a month because I'm using quality supplements and really, if you're using supplements, you're looking at at least a pound a day for quality supplements. So you're, you're, you're in the 30 plus pound a month anyway just to look after your general health, I think and then the other.

Speaker 2:

The other bottle was 25 quid. One of them was 100 and something. It was the fact that the minute that you put meno pause on it at all, I am absolutely sure that they will put the price up and it it feels like they are taking full advantage of a group of very, very desperate women that want any kind of relief from these symptoms. And then there's this whole list of symptoms on the back of the packets saying that it's going to relieve them, and there is absolutely no way that what those supplements have got in is going to just sort of throw a blanket over all of those symptoms and that you're going to have relief from it, especially without any guidance because it depends on what's going on for you personally.

Speaker 1:

So if your progesterone has absolutely plummeted, for example, the likelihood is that you're going to experience some anxiety and you know some of these products are going to have specific nutrients in that might help the pathways for the neurotransmitters and it might just be what you need. Therefore, you might be someone that notices I've started taking this supplement and my anxiety is reduced. That might well happen. You might be someone else who's got hot flushes, you know, and that's causing you the problem, and something in that supplement is targeting that for you. But it's not going to be like one supplement solves all these issues.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely, but it's not going to be like one supplement solves all these issues. Yeah, absolutely. And as you're going like in perimenopause, as you're still going through a bit of a cycle, is it worth taking exactly the same supplement every single day? Because are your needs not going to change, as your cycle is is fluctuating?

Speaker 1:

yeah, it's a good question. And then this goes back to I've been posting a lot about this stuff on social media this month because it's men, good question. And then this goes back to I've been posting a lot about this stuff on social media this month because it's menopause awareness month, isn't it in october? I think that we need to understand our hormones and what they're actually doing and then know what our levels are, and then we can tailor things to suit exactly what's going on for us, because I've seen someone recently that has been put on hrt but actually they've got no progesterone and too much estrogen. And they've been put on estrogen, just suck it and see, and that's making their symptoms worse without necessarily knowing what are their actual levels.

Speaker 1:

So I think it goes back to we need proper testing, we need a proper understanding of how our hormones actually work and then knowing what nutrients are actually helping in what area, which is where you then need to see someone who knows this stuff, I think, rather than just picking off the product off the shelf. But I do see that they are putting a blanket. It helps with this. It helps with this. It helps with this. The chances are that it is going to help, but not everything for every person.

Speaker 2:

No, absolutely what I'd be. I'd be interested to know is that how different these supplements are to like a general supplement that you'd take on a day-to-day basis. I'm guessing maybe not very different. And they've gone and slapped a menopause sticker on it, bumped up the price. I just feel like.

Speaker 1:

I feel like women are being taken advantage of actually I have to say that, in the defense of that, from the supplements, the brands that I use, I do not see a bump in in price. If it's a menopause product versus a pregnancy product, versus a general nutrient, yeah, things will change to suit different people so there will be different nutrients in a menopause support supplement as opposed to a supplement for general well-being to take in your 30s, there is a difference. Sometimes you might see that ingredients are more expensive. So if you're looking at a specific nutrient and that's got a lot of that in and it's an expensive one, it might part the price, but I'm not generally seeing that, which is good yes, yeah, yeah, good stuff, let's go so we've just got to the part where they're interviewing a lady that went to see louise newson, the menopause doctor she calls herself, doesn't she?

Speaker 1:

I don't actually know too much about her, I don't know what qualifications she's got or anything, but I think she's generally quite well known, isn't she within the within the menopause world. Basically, this lady said that she had symptoms that were mostly anxiety, I think. From what she said on the program, we don't know too much at the moment. We don't know what Louise looked at in terms of. Were there any other reasons why she was feeling anxious? Or did she just assume it was hormones and give her HRT and then she doubled her dosage, which might have meant that she might not have had low oestrogen, she might have just had low progesterone.

Speaker 1:

Because I see that quite common in people that I see that are going through perimenopause is that the progesterone starts to drop but estrogen is all over the place. So actually they they become more estrogen dominant, but they haven't got the progesterone to balance it. And progesterone is really important because it is the calming hormone when we're looking at the pathways for the neurotransmitters. But you were asking me about a statement that was made about the, the medication. So can you remember?

Speaker 2:

so they've just they've just said that, um, like the, the standard for hrt is that women are put on the the lowest dose possible and for the shortest amount of time, and I was wondering kind of out loud really, what.

Speaker 2:

I wonder what the evidence base for that is, because unless you are taking it to then create some sort of hormonal effect support underneath that, to then come off the tablets or gels or pessaries or what have you, when you stop taking it you are just going to start to have the symptoms Like you're not going to suddenly start producing all these hormones again. So what is the evidence to stop? So if you've chosen to take HRT, what is the evidence to stop taking it? Why do you have to stop taking it? Can you not just continue for the other whole half of your life being supported by these, by, by HRT? Because you've gone through the whole of your life with these hormones playing a massive, massive role in your, in your body, in your health, in your fitness, in your well-being, and then they drop off and then on. Often this would be when we die.

Speaker 1:

We've served our purpose this is so true and I think we forget that is that it is a natural thing. That happens. Everybody who has a period is going to go through this at some stage. But when we we look at you know the history. We wouldn't generally have lived that much longer past that time when the hormones change. Because, you're quite right, we served our purpose. The our purpose is to keep the next generation going.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so, yeah, so we could just pop off and so with with, obviously, with all medical advances and health and fitness advances, we are living longer, and actually was listening to a podcast the other day about the fact that we are living longer, but the quality of our like the second part of our lives, post venipause is awful and so, regardless if you have HRT or not.

Speaker 2:

It was just interesting. I wonder if there's evidence to support why you have to stop it. And I doubt there's very much, because I know that that lots of the evidence with things like the contraceptive pill is very old, very subjective.

Speaker 1:

There's lots of myths and hearsay around it and, as we are finding, so much is that there is not enough research being put into these female specific things yeah, the research is not great for women's health when we actually look at the amount, and there's a lot of scientific studies that are done in nutrition and medicines, but you're quite right, a lot of them are based on young men.

Speaker 1:

Ten men and pretty young, you know young men. So I just don't think we have all the information at the moment. But I think, going back to what you were saying about why can't you just stay on it, you're quite right. If your, if your hormones are changing and you've got to the point where your ovarian reserve has has gone and you're not producing your estrogen, your progesterone is not being produced either, and you find that hT really works because you've put those two hormones back in and they're at the right dosage, at the right balance for you, then when you stop, you're going to be back to where you were before. You're not producing estrogen, you're not producing progesterone. In fact, the body does still produce some. By the way, I think sometimes we forget that and it's the balance between those two that we want to support. But the whole way that it, the mechanism, works is it's not just down to those two hormones.

Speaker 1:

You know, I'm thinking with my nutritionist head on that lady in her 40s with anxiety. I'm thinking to myself what's her life like? What's her stress levels like? Is she sleeping well enough? Because all of those things will have an impact on her sex hormones. Is she having regular periods or not because, again, stress can impact that, it can upset the cycle, yeah, and so it might not have just been a case for her. And this is what I've seen with a client recently with anxiety going to the doctor and just being given oestrogen. She was already oestrogen dominant, but she's got no progesterone so she's going to feel anxious. So we've got to find out what's causing the stress for her, what's happening in her body that's stopping her from producing progesterone and what can we do to support that. Giving her extra o extra estrogen was not the answer, and that seems to be the case here. But we don't know all the information, do we? We don't know how that consultation went. I don't know how, not what tests were taken or anything, we don't know do we so?

Speaker 1:

it's hard to tell and I know lots of women who have gone to the gp and been put on hrt or any medication it could be an antidepressant, it could be a meprazole for digestive discomfort have found that their symptoms get worse because it wasn't the right thing for them.

Speaker 2:

No, I when I was very anxious and I started taking some medication. I took a long time to get around to it, but I really felt dreadful and the first one that I took made me feel 10 times worse so what did the doctor do?

Speaker 1:

did they change the type of medicine or did they change the dose? Or what happened I?

Speaker 2:

changed the time. Well, I went back and we changed the type of medicine. I was very, although I was in a was in the depths of despair. I was very. I led my care. I used my doctor as somebody that was going to give me information. Obviously, they were the expert Medically, they knew far more than me. However, I was still the one that was in control of it.

Speaker 2:

And the same, when I came back off it again although they laughed because I was a little bit too in control, because, um, I really really lightly came off it very, very long and slowly, but I was but I was the one that said right, this is what I want to do and this is what I'm going to do I informed them, I told, I told them I was doing yeah, I think again, often we we hand our power over to these people and I and there is no criticism there, there's no judgment, because you can be in absolute desperation this woman yeah, exactly was was clearly feeling terrible. I wanted to just speak to you very quickly about the. We're talking about oestrogen dominance and does it have an effect on women? Because we live in a in estrogen dominant environment, don't we yep absolutely?

Speaker 2:

that makes a huge difference is that. I'm assuming, because it's things like that's when we were talking to caroline in the podcast and she was talking about like plastic wrap yeah yeah, apples and things like that, and that's getting more and more and more, and so I wonder if people are taking that into consideration when they are dosing with oestrogen and looking at progesterone and things.

Speaker 1:

I don't think it gets considered at all, and this is why you can't just look at one thing, you've got to look at everything. And we do have a massive issue with too much oestrogen in the environment, in food, in water, for sure it's. It's a huge problem, yeah interesting.

Speaker 2:

Right, let's carry on watching. So we've just paused it. We're right near the end now, actually after they have just been talking about the high doses of estrogen prescribed by, uh, louise newson's clinic. It's a bit. It's a bit of an uncomfortable watch. They are ripping her to pieces and as and as much as and we'll talk about the estrogen dosing in a minute I do agree with the doctors that are now no longer working with her is that she has raised the profile of menopause and made it made yeah, made it something that people are talking about.

Speaker 2:

It was quite uncomfortable initially looking at the response to a patient's query with a a price list of consultations, but actually then, when I thought about it and talking to talking to Julie, who's obviously a private consultant, it makes sense, if you've gone and sought private care, that you you pay for your consultations. So that was, that was an interesting thought. And we've just looked at the story with the lady who had a total hysterectomy because she had cancer and the dosing with that and the big thing that I that really struck me initially was how let down that lady has been from every single caregiver. So after her total hysterectomy I don't feel like she should have been just left to fend for herself, going into full surgical menopause and then. So then she goes and seeks private help and then the private help do not communicate with her GP or her oncologists and end up making jointly, making her worse, and I just feel like she was. I feel like she was let down on on all all counts there, which was, which was really sad.

Speaker 1:

But I know you were.

Speaker 2:

You were hopping about the or hopping and confused.

Speaker 1:

I think about the, about the oestrogen levels being prescribed yeah, just before we move on to that, I think, because, as you said, I work in that private field and and obviously charge people for consultations and things. A lot of people that I see come to me because they've had something happen or they've had things like hysterectomies without any support, like, oh, you've been diagnosed with diabetes and they're not given any help, or you've got IBS, well, what can I eat? What can't I eat? Then there's no further help. This is very, very common, unfortunately. That's just the way things work. So I'm not surprised about that in many ways. And yeah, it's sad to see that situation with that lady, because she then sought some help, which she thought was with a specialist. And I cannot, I just can't get my head, will not understand why there was a tendency to prescribe high doses of oestrogen. I don't understand it.

Speaker 2:

No, when it and when she's doubled it and it's making the symptoms worse that it's then trebled yeah rather than changing it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm really confused by that because I think anybody who works with people going through perimenopause and menopause like I do, people that understand how those hormones work we just wouldn't. That would not be a thing that we would do. I don't understand it. Not just to to clarify that I do not prescribe I I cannot, I'm not qualified to prescribe HRT or any medicines, but understanding how those hormones work in the body and what they're doing. I mean, estrogen is all about growth and we know that that can feed certain cancers in people that are genetically. What's the word Predisposed? That's the word which that lady clearly was, because she'd already had womb cancer shortly after having a baby. So we know that there's probably a hormone aspect there. So it's, yeah, I. I just I can't understand with the other lady before her, the lady in her 50s that was given higher and higher doses of estrogen without even balancing the progesterone.

Speaker 2:

I don't understand no, in fact they didn't they. They halved the progesterone, didn't they?

Speaker 1:

they lowered the progesterone, so the seesaw was really tipped towards estrogen, which is going to cause a problem. Yeah, so I don't. I really don't understand what's happened there with. I do understand that sometimes there is a need to be a higher dose on some medicines for some people, the way that they absorb them or deal with them in the body, and that definitely is the case for the estrogen patch. From my understanding, there seemed to be a tendency through that clinic to always push a higher dose of oestrogen.

Speaker 1:

So I'm really puzzled by it and also I'm a little bit annoyed from the programme because it's not really uncovering the menopause industry. It's had a go at a few supplements and then it's totally claimed this one clinic. There's no balance in the programme. So it's a little bit disappointing really, and I knew I'd be angry watching it. I'd already decided I suppose I'd already decided that I'd be, angry.

Speaker 1:

But this is why you know it's not a balanced view, is it? They haven't looked at someone that is dealing with the menopause and helping people with their lifestyle, their stress management, their nutrition that's making a difference, because I'm seeing that all the time. Nutrition that's making a difference, because I'm seeing that all the time. That that does make a difference. And it would have been nice to have had, you know, the another clinic that wasn't pushing high dose estrogen. You do. You know what?

Speaker 2:

I mean yeah, just just yeah, show a balanced view of it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, exactly so, yeah, I just I don't really know what we've achieved by having this program out there, other than I don't know what's going to happen to this lady, dr louise newson oh yeah, that's now been stripped of her.

Speaker 1:

Uh, menopause society badge, yeah, and I don't understand. I don't know again what. We don't know anything. Do we really? If she was asked to be on the program? I don't know, I just find it all a bit weird. We've totally obliterated someone's reputation in a field where she has done quite a lot of good and, like I think, like they, they did recognize that other aspects of the consultation were good around that nutrition and lifestyle stuff yeah, that was quite heartening I was glad that they'd said that the journalist had posed hasn't she had it as a patient and the doctor consulting had had touched on lifestyle yes yeah, nutrition and things like that.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, at least that is part of the conversation.

Speaker 1:

I don't feel like it's anywhere near big enough, but no, I just I, just I think from my perspective, I would like to have an understanding from her personally as to why the higher doses of estrogen were pushed. What was the reason behind that, and has she got a whole load of people on a higher dose of estrogen that are really thriving on it? And why are they thriving? And these I'm only talking about three people on this program, weren't we? Yeah, again, I don't know how many have done really well on it versus the people that haven't, not to say that there should still be a case for pushing high doses of estrogen, because you've got to look at, you know, if you've got a young girl ending up with cancer again, you've got to ask the questions there, haven't you? Yeah, absolutely. It doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, I don't think the last 50 seconds of this is going to uh answer many of our questions, but let's see yeah, let's see, and then we'll come back and summarize our thoughts and things. I think so, yeah, we just had a conclusion. That was quite right. What women deserve is more evidence-based research. Other than that, I don't know, I feel very uncomfortable after watching that. I do feel like it was a bit of an annihilation of, uh, louise Newsome and, yeah, a few supplements and I, yeah, I don't think it went anywhere.

Speaker 1:

It wasn't very helpful. It didn't tell women what, what could help them, did it? No? So what was the point of it really, other than discrediting, you know, that one clinic? So, yeah, I don't really know what to say really to it, other than the fact that we both know because of our own client base that we've got a lot of women and ourselves as well you know I'm 53 and there have been some things changing that are annoying and frustrating.

Speaker 1:

They're not anything like debilitating, as I've seen other people go through. We also know that there are lots of things that you can do to help yourself before you even consider a medicine.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, and I think that it didn't go anywhere close enough to show that and and possibly highlighting menopause clinics, is just going to suggest to people that that's what they need to do.

Speaker 2:

Maybe they're not going to rush off to poor Louise Newsom's clinic, but perhaps that's what they're thinking. Oh, I've got symptoms, I'm going to go and consult a specialist and consult a specialist, and, yeah, I don't think there was enough voice given to how much you can do to support yourself. But I think that that's that's a trend of our society anyway is that you, you plaster over the cracks, you, you take a pill to fix this, you rub a gel in to fix that, and that is not to say that if you are taking any medications for things, that it's that it's not right. But the knee-jerk reaction is to go straight for the medicine and hand your power over to medics rather than doing something for yourself as well. Potentially, I mean they, they all work in conjunction with each other, but I don't. I don't think it's like just having sort of one thing not going straight to medicine and expecting that to fix it yeah, and I think that can be the case in in most things.

Speaker 1:

Really, it goes back to that whole. If you've got an emergency, then the nhs is amazing. If you're in critical, acute situations, it's amazing. Yeah. But chronic lifestyle things, you know, they're not, they're not so good at. And you know, I know, I know lots of. I've got lots of friends and lots of clients that are on the right dose of hrt and it's made a huge difference. I've had some people that it just hasn't suited. They've come off it. We've worked in a different way.

Speaker 1:

I suspect that I am not going to be someone who uses HRT only because I just don't react very well to things. I tried to take the pill when I was younger. That did not end well. So I think and I'm already, you know, like I said, I'm in my 50s and I don't think it's a coincidence that I've not got major issues with hormones. I know that the hormones are changing and there are some little niggly things going on, but I understand why they're there and then I know what to do to help support myself. And it's not a quick fix. I'm not going to do this in a week. I'm not going to do it in a few days. It's going to be a in a week. I'm not going to do it in a few days. It's going to be a process that I'm going through because I have to come at it from a different way. We spoke about this before.

Speaker 2:

You can't do the same thing, no as you get older and expect results, and expect it.

Speaker 1:

You know we can't do what we used to do because things are changing and I think when you really understand your hormones and you know your hormones because you've got a test that looks at your hormones I think that is one of the most empowering things you can do for yourself yeah, there's lots of talk, isn't there, about the certain age that I am now.

Speaker 2:

So I'm about, I'm 45, I'm about 45, I think I'm 45, I don't know. I always have to look at.

Speaker 2:

I look at my husband and I'm like am I? I don't know how old I am? And it's around this time that there is a a sudden change and and then again actually you're about the age where there is that second sudden change that they talk about. And I understand that when you kind of you do feel like you've dropped off that cliff and you will panic and you will go and find help wherever you think you're gonna get it and you want it quick and you want it now and you want to feel just like you did before. And perhaps that's part of the message is that actually we're not going to feel like we did before. That's not to say that we're going to feel worse, but we're going to feel different. We're going we we need to behave differently and do different things to support us.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, we have got to do things differently. So I mean, we are going to be doing a series on hormones and that understanding it. I think we just don't understand our hormones enough and unless you've specifically trained in it, it is complicated. You wouldn't necessarily, would you? You wouldn't necessarily. No, I'm wouldn't necessarily. No, I'm trying to not trying because we don't try. No, I am helping my daughter, who is 13, understand about it. She hasn't started her periods yet, but I've started to explain things to her so that she has an understanding, and I've done that in the presence of my son, who's 15, so he understands it, because otherwise you just carry on going through all these different phases without really understanding yourself. And I think to understand yourself you've got to understand your hormones yeah, no, I think it's really important and it's certainly not.

Speaker 2:

It is an education that needs to start exactly then, when the girls are young and they need to track their, their cycles. I know that my my eldest gets gets really cross when, uh, when she's got a period, she's incensed about it, she's very annoyed about it and it's trying to trying to educate her about, like, what's going on.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, because it's not helpful that she feels like that every single month no, and at the end of the day, it's it's not, it's not your fault. So you know I've been this. This is going to end up needing to be another podcast, but I came to the realization quite recently that some of the things going on, they're not it's not my fault. That's just a natural change that's happening and I've just got to support my body in a different way to be able to accept those changes and to make the best out of it. That's the difference, because otherwise I can beat myself up that I've got more injuries or I'm carrying a bit more weight or my sleep isn't as good as, or whatever it is, but because I, I understand how this is all working and it's not my fault, and it's the same for your daughter. When she reacts like that, it's not her fault, is it? Yeah, it's no one's fault. But if we understand how it works, then we can put the support in and then we don't have to suffer. That's the whole point, isn't it yeah?

Speaker 2:

I think probably this is a whole new podcast, because what you're talking about it's how we've decided menopause is and as a society, I think there's not much value, certainly in england as well. There's not much value on older people anymore, and so when we start to go through these menopause symptoms and cycles, we're like, oh, we're almost thinking, oh, we're drawing to a close, we're coming to an end, and so when we start to feel these symptoms, we feel bad about ourselves. It's, it's how we look at it. That's really interesting, and what you've done is switched it around and said that this is totally natural, it's not, it's not your fault, it's not, you know, because you've got some more aches and pains. It's not reflection on you as a person or your value to your family or your society, whereas I think it's quite easy actually when we, when we start these symptoms, to feel like we're on a decline, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:

So we gotta, we gotta change the narrative. Yeah, because we're strong, powerful women without periods yeah, I mean, I have to say I'm looking forward to the day where they do stop completely and I don't have to deal with that. But yeah, in the meantime, we we are strong, powerful women.

Speaker 2:

Excellent, great job. So if you have seen this documentary, we would love for you to come and join us in the Facebook group and tell us what you thought Perhaps you could watch. I was just about to say perhaps you could watch a documentary and then listen to this. But if you're now listening to this recording, it's too late, because you will have already listened to the podcast. And now do we leave this bullshit in or not? We're ready to leave this bit for the bloopers. So do come into the Far Too Fabulous Facebook group and let us know if you have watched the documentary and what you thought. Do you agree with us? Do you disagree with us? We are open for all comments and discussions and we look forward to seeing you in there. Thank you for keeping us company today. If you enjoyed the podcast, don't forget to subscribe and leave a review.

Speaker 1:

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Speaker 2:

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Speaker 1:

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Speaker 2:

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