Far 2 Fabulous

Embracing Sobriety: Redefining Social Norms and Enhancing Wellness with Sarah Williamson

• Julie Clark & Catherine Chapman • Episode 38

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What if choosing sobriety could open up a world of new possibilities and redefine your social norms? Join us as Sarah Williamson, a life and sober coach, shares her transformative journey from the pressures of local government to embracing a fulfilling alcohol-free lifestyle. Sarah's story shines a light on her personal struggles with drinking and the powerful realizations that set her on a path toward wellness. She offers insights into the emotional complexities tied to alcohol and the courage it takes to make conscious wellness decisions in a society that often celebrates drinking.

Our conversation doesn't shy away from the challenges and societal expectations surrounding alcohol. We dive into the rituals and assumptions that come with drinking at weddings, festivals, and various social gatherings. Through personal anecdotes, such as attending events sober, we discuss the courage required to redefine what is considered normal and the emotional rewards of staying true to one's wellness journey. The discussion also explores healthier alternatives for stress management, revolutionizing end-of-day rituals with practices like meditation and non-alcoholic beverages that truly support well-being.

Choosing sobriety offers a chance to shift perspectives and explore a life enriched with new flavours and experiences. We examine the cultural norms that romanticize drinking, challenging the idea of alcohol as a staple in celebrations and everyday life. Sarah invites us to rethink these habits and consider the growing variety of alcohol-free options available today. This episode encourages listeners to see an alcohol-free lifestyle not as a limitation but as an opportunity to enhance overall wellness and discover satisfying alternatives that align with a healthier, more conscious way of living.

Thank you again to Sarah for joining the Far 2 Fabulous conversation.  If you would like to find out more about her and how she can help you, check out these links below:
www.drinklesslivebetter.com
The 5 day Drink Less Experiment
Drink Less; Live Better THE BOOK 

Listen: to the Drink Less; Live Better Podcast

Got a question or comment? Send us a text message here!

Want to stay focused on your health and fitness over the Christmas period? This is the time of year most people take a break from their health and fitness goals and end up having to start over again on January 1st. But what if this year was different? 

If you want to keep your momentum going and feel a whole lot better in the process…

Download my FREE Healthy Christmas Checklist HERE

Thank you for listening.

You can continue the conversation with us in the Far 2 Fabulous Facebook group. Come and connect with other women on a journey to empowered health.


For more information about Julie Clark Nutrition, click HERE
For more information about Catherine Chapman, click HERE

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We look forward to you joining us on the next episode.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to Far Too Fabulous hosted by Julie and Catherine.

Speaker 2:

Join us on a mission to embrace your fabulousness and redefine wellness. Get ready for some feistiness, inspiration, candy chats and humour as we journey together towards empowered wellbeing. Let's dive in.

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Far Too Fabulous podcast. Catherine and I have got a very special guest today, Sarah Williamson, who I've wanted to get on the podcast for a while. She is a life and sober coach, wellbeing expert, has written a book, has her own podcast and we are going to be talking about alcohol today. So, Sarah, tell us a bit more about yourself and how you came to be a sober coach.

Speaker 3:

Well, honestly, if you'd have asked me a few years ago what I might be doing as a job, let me tell you it never would have been this as one of my guesses.

Speaker 3:

A lot of the reason as to how I've got to the place that I am now is through lived experience, actually, and my own experience with alcohol.

Speaker 3:

I had worked for 15 years in coaching and mentoring, mostly with young people, talking to them pretty much all day, every day, about their substance use and misuse, whilst never actually considering my own relationship with alcohol.

Speaker 3:

And I think it's really easy for us to think that there are substances available within society that might help us or hinder us with our moods or whatever is going on for us at any particular reason, and to think that alcohol is perfectly fine because, of course, it's for sale in our supermarket and everyone else is having a drink at the end of the day to take the edge off or to cheer themselves up or to have a great time. Why should we think about it? What is the problem here? And so, through a series of different experiences and stuff that was going on for me, I came to the point where I thought I wanted to really have a think about and a closer examination of my experience around alcohol. So I had started to set up my own coaching business whilst I was still working in local government was still working in local government. This was about three and a half four years ago, until I made that leap um three and a half years ago to work entirely by myself and for myself life coaching and sober coaching people.

Speaker 2:

That's incredible. What a fantastic story and I am sure that there are many, many listeners that can identify with that, starting to look at their relationship with alcohol. Were there any set things that kind of made this ball really start rolling?

Speaker 3:

Yes, and in fact quite a bit of it actually has to do with Julie.

Speaker 2:

I wondered if you were going to blame Julie for that.

Speaker 3:

Of course I was. Of course I was, I think, before that I was starting to have ideas around whether alcohol was serving me or not. I've got a really, really specific date in my mind. That was June 2017. I had had a night out with some friends in London. It was our usual version of our night out. We met for cocktails and drinks before dinner, had a really nice dinner out wine, and then I think we probably did have another cocktail or two after dinner the next day. So I got the last train home, as I normally did.

Speaker 3:

The next day I had such a devastating hangover. I had certainly had hangovers similar beforehand and I had definitely had what I would describe as low level anxiety and brain fog and, you know, a bit of feeling less than ideal related to alcohol. And really, by that point, it didn't really take much more than two glasses of wine to feel a bit rough around the edges. The next day and this particular morning, I woke up and thought ah right, this is entirely self inflicted. I am going to have things different from this in the future. But I didn't know what that was going to look like, and so throughout 2017 and 18, I continued drinking in the same way that I was, but knew in the back of my mind I was going to make a change. And during that time, what I really concentrated on and I wouldn't have had the language for this then, but I do now it was education, and I started to look for other people in the world who were feeling similar to me and doing something similar to what I wanted to do and exploring the idea. But I was full of shame and guilt about it and I couldn't see other people who were advertising for me what looked might have looked like an amazing life, really well lived. That was not lonely, miserable, boring. You know that didn't involve words like sober and alcohol free, and I was thinking of all of the connotations around. You know how unfortunate my life would be if I wasn't going to be somebody who drank. I mean, really I was building it up into something totally that I did. You know all of the things I didn't want, I guess, and during that time period again, I wouldn't have had this language.

Speaker 3:

But I now know I was on a journey of what I would describe now as harm reduction. So I went from drinking and by this period in my life I would not tell you that I was drinking massively, excessively. But if I was having a night out with the girls yes, of course I always drank more than I intended and of course there would be a couple of cocktails and some wine If we were having dinner around each other's houses, it almost felt like the Prosecco or the wine was just never-endingly being poured and the bottles passed around. And the impacts, of course, are physical, but they really are emotional as well, and I guess what I was starting to do, without really realising it, was storing records for myself of, right, if I drink this, how do I feel? If I drink, you know, two glasses of wine versus two cocktails, what does that translate to the next morning?

Speaker 3:

And in 2019, I did one of Julie's programs which I really really threw myself into, and I wanted to be a learner. I really wanted to implement everything that Julie had as ideas. I think I I really saw it as a bit of a pick and mix. There was stuff that I really did already know for myself, but I wanted somebody else to say go on, then do it, see, see what it feels like, see what happens on the other side of it, and I really started to explore the truth of who I was and started to. You know, of course I went into it thinking it was about what I might be eating, but it was so much more than that. Was about what I might be eating, but it was so much more than that, and I started to really think very carefully about what I was doing for myself and my family in terms of nutrition, and then wondering why I was necking a couple of glasses of wine in the evening. It felt like I was doing all of this great stuff during the day, eating a nutritious and fabulous and beautifully coloured dinner and then choosing to sit down and relax with a glass of wine. And so it was a journey of untangling the emotions and stuff that were all tied up in that, certainly, by the end of my drinking, I was never, ever binge drinking.

Speaker 3:

If I went out and I wasn't drinking at home, I'd sort of set up different, I suppose, experimental, phases and I had got to a point where if I was having a drink, I was never drinking more than two drinks. If I was having a drink, it was probably because I was out rather than in and I was exploring the difference around. How did drinking feel if I was already feeling tired and deflated versus how did drinking feel if I was out for a girlfriend's birthday and already high on the energy of a great night out. So in that end period I was drinking well below what the government guidelines for allegedly called safe drinking is, and I think other people on the outside looking in might have said why are you going to choose to stop drinking when you haven't got a problem with alcohol? There's nothing to see here. You know you're not pouring that classic line vodka on your cornflakes in the morning. You know your kids aren't being neglected. You haven't hit a rock bottom where you've lost your job or crashed your car or blown up your relationship. You don't need residential rehab. You don't need a detox. There was no drama. There was absolutely no drama around it and in October 2019, julie had asked a question within a group setting around what our ambitions were going to be for the following year around our wellness, and I think I probably went last in the group and I said I've got an idea that next year I'm not going to have an alcoholic drink.

Speaker 3:

I'm going to run an experiment and see how it feels, and Julie enthusiastically received my idea. I can't remember what the words would have been, but they would have been something around. That sounds like an amazing idea for you, sarah, go for it. And I looked at the faces of the other people in the Zoom room and it felt a bit like tumbleweed blowing through and I thought I know I'm okay to say this out loud, I know that this is okay for me, but I recognised in that moment there was going to be some stuff for me to address with other people in the following year. So, yeah, that's how I came to the decision Speaking now. Um, so yeah, that's how I came to the decision speaking now. You know, nearly five years down the line. I'm so grateful to that past version of me who. It did feel courageous, it did feel really brave and bold and slightly out of the box to make that choice, but I'm so glad that I did do that.

Speaker 1:

I do remember that really, really well because it's quite a standout moment in all the groups I've done and you're quite right, the reaction, because then, if you remember, you initially said I'm going to do this next year and then you made the decision, actually I'm going to do it now. And it was like the lead up to Christmas, at that time that you then said I'm just going to stop. Why am I waiting? Waiting and yeah, and it was. It was incredible. And you haven't had a drink since that moment, have you? No, that was it. Yeah, no, exactly incredible what?

Speaker 2:

what's really interesting is that because I know this dance, I know the dance you're talking about. About, I certainly don't. I don't really been, I certainly don't. I don't really binge drink, I don't drink over the sort of normal limits, but I do this, I do this dance. I don't really drink, at home particularly, and if I go out I probably only have a couple of drinks. Yet I still expend a lot of energy with that dance because I know, I actually know that my future doesn't hold alcohol in it and it's. It's really interesting listening to you going, no, I'm going to do that next year and then going actually, yeah, why don't I stop this ridiculousness?

Speaker 3:

let's just, let's just let's do it now and it's so the emotional energy that we're putting into that back and forth and all of the other places that we've made amazing progress in our lives and you know we've concentrated on amazing wellness decisions that we're making. I think one of the things that came to me somewhere along the line was I absolutely knew that I didn't have any kind of physical addiction to alcohol. You know, I knew that I wasn't. You know, I suppose to a certain degree over two years I'd probably done a tapering exercise, but you know, I absolutely knew I could wake up the next morning and not have a drink and be absolutely fine. And also I suppose side note at moment also to say that is not fine for everybody.

Speaker 3:

If you are somebody who is physically addicted to alcohol, what I'm about to say is not the path for you, absolutely. You know medical, whatever medical intervention is necessary, absolutely should and must be taken. So, whilst I would say I was not physically addicted to alcohol, I hate to say that I think I was emotionally addicted to it in some senses because I wondered how I was going to have fun on that night out. What are you going to do about that music festival you've booked tickets for? What are you going to do when your best friend gets married next year? What about you know Christmas? What are you going to do at midnight or New Year's Eve when you haven't got a glass of champagne in your hand? All of these things actually really did need some careful thinking about and planning for up front.

Speaker 1:

I remember when I wasn't drinking and we were going to, it was a wedding, my sister's wedding, and it was in an all-inclusive resort in Mexico. And I remember my other sister who might well be listening to this podcast saying to me you can't go on an all-inclusive holiday and not drink. Are you going to be drinking? And yeah, it's very interesting that society pressure to be drinking for commiseration, for celebration. I had to go to a funeral this week and when we got back to the wake afterwards I wanted a cup of tea and it was in a pub and my friend said to me please have a drink because it's on. It was her dad that passed away. Please have a drink because it's on my dad. I said I just want a cup of tea and she said, actually that's fine because her dad was a Yorkshireman and we often had Yorkshire tea. So we had, I had a cup of tea.

Speaker 1:

But again, in that situation, you're at a funeral, you're expected to drink, you're at a wedding, you're expected to drink and if you don't, people look at you like there's something wrong with you and they want to know well, why are you not drinking? Have you had a problem? So yeah, then what is accepted now as norm. We need maybe to have a discussion about what is normal and what isn't. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3:

I think that all-inclusive question is a really interesting conversation. On the other side of that, we did, for the first time ever, an all-inclusive family holiday about probably two or three years ago and in the run-up to that I thought, oh well, the holiday company will actually do quite well out of me in terms of finances because clearly what I've paid has included as much wine and beer as I want to drink, but I don't want to. What I thought about when I was going into each of the restaurants was actually how much less well they did out of me from eating really well.

Speaker 3:

So if I'd have been somebody who was drinking, I would have been eating all of the carbs and I'd have been all of the toast and the pasta and the chips and all of the beige and yellow food that was much cheaper for a hotel to provide and, of course, actually probably what I was doing was costing them more money in terms of all of the delicious fruit and vegetables and lovely fish that I was eating. So that was my secret kind of I suppose I was eating. So that was my secret kind of I suppose, mind game with myself as to, yes, I can go on an all-inclusive holiday and get your money's worth.

Speaker 1:

It's about getting your money's worth, isn't it? It's a reframe, because you feel like you should be drinking because of you've paid all that money yeah, yeah, and and don't.

Speaker 3:

We want to go on holiday and come back feeling better than when we before we, went on holiday.

Speaker 2:

We spoke about this, didn't we? Yeah, absolutely. You're other than feeling like you need another week off to recover.

Speaker 3:

Yes, Isn't it madness that we have that week or that 10 days, that time away from our normal lives and come back feeling shattered because we have dr and overindulged in all sorts of other ways, more than we usually do? Let me tell you how amazing it is to come back from holidays and have slept really, really well and eaten well because you haven't had that side issue going on in your head and drinking, or even expending a lot of time thinking about drinking or not drinking.

Speaker 3:

I do think that society thing around, how we have interpreted alcohol as a fix for everything, is very difficult to navigate. So, if we're going to talk in really simple terms, I'm afraid sorry if this is a newsflash for you alcohol is a poison and a toxin is a poison and a toxin. So how can we expect one liquid to do everything for us in our lives? You know, if we're feeling rubbish because we're at a funeral, we have a drink, and if we're feeling amazing and celebratory and brilliant because we're at a wedding and have a drink, I don't understand how that one tool for want of a better word is making things I use this word lightly better for a situation, because it absolutely is not. And whilst I absolutely appreciate there's an element of taking an edge off how sad it is to take an edge off a brilliant thing what a shame.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's one of the things that gets me is that when I want to go, when I want to reach for the Prosecco, it is usually because of a reason. It whether I'm, whether I'm yeah, whether I'm happy, whether I'm sad, but I'm often trying to either enhance or cover up feelings that are going on. It's it's never just because I want to. There's always a reason, and that often kind of gets me through or kind of gets me over that. That one is like I start to dig into why I'm having these feelings. What's that external control? And also part of it's that kind of that knee-jerk that learn experience isn't it in society? And that annoys me. I don't like being controlled by other people.

Speaker 3:

So, yeah, yes, absolutely, and I think that you know that five, that six o'clock itch thing, when perhaps actually one of the things we might be is a bit tired or hungry, you know, really concentrating on that idea of making sure we are well hydrated throughout the day we've had a good mid afternoon snack so we're not feeling like chewing our arm off and then if we get in from work or you know, our day is changing gear around five or six o'clock and we're cooking dinner and other people are in and out of the house.

Speaker 3:

Actually, if we stop and ask ourselves, you know what am I feeling and what do I actually need at this point? Very often you know that glass of wine that you might have poured at that point is a sugar fix as much as anything else. You're knackered and you feel like you just need pepping up. And I think that idea of saying actually to perhaps other people in your household I am feeling a bit tired and I am a bit overwhelmed because of x, y and z and actually I'm worried because of this is going on. That feels like it's out of my control. I hear you, you know how can we get closer to that stuff and and work it through and resolve it in ways that feel perhaps there I say healthier than back the glove, that serve you absolutely.

Speaker 2:

I love, I love that way of having that conversation and actually speaking it out. Another thing that we often talk about, and the reason that things like meditation and breathwork are such great tools, is that they help you connect back in with yourself and and again. As a society, we have really disconnected with ourselves, and alcohols are, I think, probably a huge part of that, and so to be able to have that conversation how am I feeling? Why am I feeling like that? And yeah, and, and. Is there a better way that I can feel better? Can I maybe end the day with like a cup of cacao or something, rather than than a glass of wine, for instance?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and don't you feel that sometimes we've almost made that end of day gear change thing slightly ritualistic? You know, I really I had a. My very final thing to go was my Thursday gin and tonic habit, because I happen to do a particular job Monday to Thursday and a different job on a Friday. So I had sort of a semi end of week on a Thursday night and I had a particular really chunky crystal glass and I just loved that, getting the ice slicing, a lemon big slug of gin tonic. And what I really, really enjoyed was the moment that I sort of leant back against the kitchen counter and took a really big sigh. I'd be standing in the kitchen probably by myself, the kids bouncing in and out wherever and take a really big gulp of that first G&T and almost feeling like I was moving my emotional state from one place to another.

Speaker 3:

And interestingly I think it's interestingly that simple switch of buying non-alcoholic gin and tonic instead of gin was an easy gift, such a fix for that moment. That really was tied up in habit, because actually it was very little to do with the alcoholic hit that I needed or wanted at that point of day and everything to do about almost the ceremony or the glass out the ice and you can get some incredible alcohol free drinks. Now that market is booming and expanding, there's exciting stuff coming and actually that habit served for a period of time that was around making a change. I absolutely couldn't be bothered to make an alcohol free gin and tonic on a Thursday night. Now I'd rather make a cup of tea, but it if you could swap that out like you did.

Speaker 1:

But keep the habit still until you got to the point where you were ready to move on then, then that helps. I think, in my experience with working with people, one of the things that people will often say to me and and that I noticed is that especially women very, very stressed, very high levels of stress and the thing that alcohol will give them. Because, as you know, you know women the drinking really increased over the last 20 years with women and we've got things like gin o'clock and a lot of the mummy's gin fund. A lot of you know there was a lot of link with being a mom and drinking. There's a lot of marketing around it, but that stress side of it it's when you drink.

Speaker 1:

The feedback I get, and having experienced this myself, is that you get to numb out from the stress that you're experiencing without having to do any work. So when I ask people do you need a walk, do you need to eat a proper snack? Do you need to do any work? So when I ask people do you need a walk? Do you need to eat a proper snack? Do you need to do some breath work? That's more work and effort, whereas pouring a drink isn't.

Speaker 3:

Yeah and and a drink is a shortcut, a shorthand, that is a. You know, those neural pathways are well worn they. You know what you're going to get at the end of that.

Speaker 3:

One of the things that occurred to me at some point along the line, probably in 2019, was that I was doing a lot of doing about my wellness, and I was doing the green smoothie, the yoga, the going for a run, I was buying the supplements and sometimes I was even taking them. There was the journaling, there was the breath work. All of this in my life was, I suppose, costing for want of a better word energy, time or money. And one day I thought to myself oh, there's all of this stuff I've added in. What about if I do just take one thing out? What about if I experiment with the removal of one thing, and that one thing was alcohol, and then put some of that time, energy and effort into the things that are going to support me around? The stress, of course, of course, that first glass of wine, that first G&T. What normally happens 20 minutes in is you get that either that numbing effect, whatever it is that you know we're all individual. Whatever you're going to get at the end of that, you're then never, ever getting back to that point. So, regardless, if you would carry, you know, drink the rest of the bottle of wine or whatever you know that's going to lead to an entirely different place, but that first 20 minutes is where it kicks and then there's nothing to be gained on the other side of that, other than, I'm afraid to say, the negative side effects that may well come. Being in that position where you are resourcing yourself and, yes, I'm afraid it is work being in that place where you are designing a life that you don't need the alcohol to escape from, is the work to be done, and if you are living the kind of life where, at the end of the day, you don't need to numb out from it, that is a brilliant place to be.

Speaker 3:

I really remember one Friday night watching something on TV and it was about nine o'clock and I was about to put the kids to bed. They'd been, I don't know, let's say probably first year, I don't know, maybe towards the end of primary school or something. I remember on this particular Friday night I had my half-drunk glass of wine I probably already had one or two glasses and I went to put it down on the side and I had this flash of inspiration where I thought, oh, oh, my god, I've got everything from my wildest dreams. I kind of did that momentary almost look at myself from outside of myself, saw myself sitting on my sofa with my husband next to me, my two kids in my house, my dog. I live in a house in a really beautiful town on the edge of the countryside, and I suddenly had this feeling of all my wildest dreams have come true. This is everything I ever wanted.

Speaker 3:

Oh, how peculiar it is that I am needing to feel slightly aside from it with this alcohol. I am feeling like this is the life that I created for myself, entirely on purpose, but it all actually feels a bit much, a bit overwhelming, a bit stress filled. I need to address what's going on here, and it was a moment of clarity for me that thought, yeah, some of this stress, which particularly was around work and health conditions within the family, I need to get to the root causes of some of this and, oh my god, some of it was so uncomfortable, some of it was really horrible to take a look at and some of the adjustments I needed to make felt really devastating at the time and you know, an example of one of those things would be the loss of one of my friendships. But I'm here to tell you a story nearly five years down the line that I'm grateful that I did do that stuff.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you're right, you do. Again, me and Catherine have spoken about this. You do have to put the work in if you want to make changes. So, yeah, there is, there is effort involved. We should probably be quite transparent and say that we do both drink. Yes, you know, we do both drink, like yesterday. This is a classic example of what happened. So yesterday was my daughter's 13th birthday. She wanted to have a kitchen disco, which we did, and with sushi, because that's her favorite food, and whenever it's one of the children's birthdays, I always have a glass of champagne because I feel like it's a celebration for me because I gave birth to you and you've kept them alive for 13 years

Speaker 1:

and I'm like it's not all about you, I'm having a glass of champagne and I did do that yesterday. Well, I didn't have proper champagne, I had Prosecco, but I did do that. And then I did think because we were going to be on this chat today I thought to myself I've normalized drinking to my children on their birthdays and so, yeah, there's so many many like we're talking about the norms there. You know, there's no, there's not necessarily. Nobody would judge me for doing that at all. And yet, if you dare to think or even mention or suggest that you're going to give up alcohol, I'm done with it. It's you wouldn't get the same if you were smoking. If you were smoking and you were going to go, do you know what? I'm done with this?

Speaker 2:

I'm going to give up everyone would be really supporting you if you do it of alcohol or if you, if you're sat there with a big joint on their 13th birthday going I've made it to your 13th birthday, yeah, I'm gonna sit here and celebrate with a big joint. Yeah, I mean, it's not. It would be totally, totally different, wouldn't it?

Speaker 3:

and I just want to pop out a line of coke here just to make sure that this is fully celebrated. No, yeah, this doesn't work, does it no?

Speaker 2:

I was listening to a podcast the other day and I've listened to so many recently, I can't remember who it was, but she was talking about how the norm of alcohol was just was given to her without her consent and this really made me think about. So I've got a 17 year old daughter who is rather partial to an Aperol spritz, as am I, and I've just passed this on to her without consciously thinking about it and without her permission that I have just said yep, alcohol is absolutely fine. I grew up and I was allowed to drink alcohol relatively young, and so I never felt like I had. I never felt like I had to binge. I never felt like I had to hide it.

Speaker 2:

Obviously, when I was younger, there were a few times when I drank in complete excess. I'd never felt like I was rebelling against it, and so this is what, and I felt like that was a gift, and so this is what I passed on to my children, and I've got a 15-year-old he's nearly 16-year-old son who if we're at a celebration this celebration thing again he'll have a beer with dad or something like that. And when she said that, I was like I've done that, I've just passed it straight on to them without their permission. And she's an older well, she was an older lady, actually, she's probably about my age Talking like looking back at that, thinking, yeah, that there was no permission given and we've just run along again with society and I don't like doing that. I don't like doing things just because everybody else does it.

Speaker 3:

In fact I'd rather do the total opposite. And you know there are many areas in my life that I refuse to do the expected thing and, and I suppose actually this is one of them I do remember thinking that my kids are a similar age to your 17 and 16. At one point this might have been I imagine it was probably in the time where I was having the tussle back and forth about am I going to take this wild step or not, Thinking to myself about that idea that in parenting I know for sure my kids listen to very little of what I might like to tell them or impart as knowledge experience. But they absolutely are watching me all the time and how much of parenting is modelling, are watching me all the time and how much of parenting is modelling. And I really, I suppose, if I were going to tell you about some regrets, I might have some regrets that are around Friday nights when the kids were toddlers and in my friendship group we all used to get together, cook the kids, fish fingers and mash or whatever, and open a bottle of Prosecco and get stuck into that early evening on a Friday. I sort of have some regrets around the idea that at that point in my life I was showing my kids I was drinking around them because I couldn't quite cope with them, even though they were exactly what I wanted.

Speaker 3:

And this goes back, Julie, to your point about all of that marketing, that Harar for gin, you know, mummy, juice, wine, o'clock it's five o'clock somewhere stuff. How about, instead of handing knackered and overwhelmed and stressed mums, a bottle of wine, what about if we sent a cleaner round for them or delivered them a lasagna to eat, or gave them a massive cuddle or said to them what's going on for you? Why don't you offload it all on me? Talk to me about it, let's let's have a look at what's going on, and it isn't. Everything is the sticky plaster of oh my god, just have a drink, let's make it go away, let's shove it under the carpet a bit.

Speaker 3:

And so now I live in a household where my husband drinks, but my kids can really clearly see that there is not a path that is automatically laid out for them that involves alcohol. It is normal to be in a household where somebody just chooses not to drink, and I don't have any labels attached to me as far as my kids are concerned. My kids have probably never heard me use the word alcoholic or problem with alcohol or anything like that. It's just a choice. Somebody in our house does drink, somebody in our house doesn't, and I don't want to lay it out for my kids as any kind of anything that comes with masses of judgment, which is slightly ironic. You know that it's not ironic.

Speaker 3:

The job that I do involves talking about alcohol pretty much all day long in my professional life, but we have different conversations about it in my personal life and I think that non permission thing is so interesting. I exactly what you said. I recognize all the stuff I was handed without permission and there are various different areas we could look at in life about that, and alcohol is certainly, certainly one of them, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, oh, absolutely. It's such a huge, huge subject, isn't it? Actually, as a society, the only reason that we'll give up things like this is because it's become a problem. Yeah, so the fact that you're not drinking and there's no problem, just, I imagine, just leaves people very uneasy.

Speaker 3:

Yes, oh my god, oh my god, the endless conversation. I suppose, to be completely honest with you, the most difficult conversations were right at the beginning. And now, because I am entirely comfortable with the decision I've made and, as it turned out, that one-year experiment I did originally, I haven't gone back to drinking. I gave myself full permission to run the experiment for a year, see how I felt, and if I felt like I was either lonely, miserable and boring or my life was unfulfilling in some way, I had given myself full permission to go back. And I still give myself full permission. Guess what, if something happens next week in which my life is going to be massively enhanced by the idea of having a drink, I might just do it. I don't know. I'm not here living a life whereby I say you know, set out some hard and fast rules. I'm somebody who likes to break a rule or two, but that idea that society, sort of it, almost feels like we're supposed to explain ourselves and if we're not pregnant on antibiotics or had a problem or driving, driving's okay.

Speaker 3:

So I did loads of that in the early days. I would get to the pub before my girlfriends and order a tonic and pretend like it was a gin and tonic so I wouldn't be questioned, or I would specifically drive, or I would say I was doing a particular event or something at seven o'clock the next morning. So I would feed all these excuses. And I originally started. I did tell some of my close girlfriends, right, I'm going to do this year long experiment, which did involve lots of conversation about you don't have a problem, you're no worse than the rest of us.

Speaker 3:

But all of that stuff just got easier. It took up less headspace. You know, as time went on, it just it no longer became a thing and I'm grateful, grateful for that. I suppose the places where it props up now are, if I go to events or weddings and stuff, where they just, you know, we used to now ticking whether we're vegetarian or vegan for a RSVP on something, but no one is ever asking us. You know, are you drinking or not? And the wine on the table will be red and white and, if you're lucky, there'll be some warm concentrated orange juice. Yeah, it's.

Speaker 1:

It's so true, isn't it? It's so true, I think, the the issue around. I haven't got a problem. So therefore, you can give yourself permission to then to then drink, and I know I do this but when we actually look at what alcohol is and what it does to the body, there is an a massive element and I know you feel the same way, catherine that and we don't like the word shouldn't, as people that are in well-being is there even a place for alcohol? And so us giving ourself permission because, like you said, I can get up in the morning and not be thinking, oh, I need a drink later. I can go for days or even weeks without needing a drink. So therefore, I haven't got a problem.

Speaker 1:

But I do know that when I do drink, especially if I've had a few too many and I'm very good at knowing my limit actually I've never been someone that drinks to massive excess I know exactly the point at which I've had enough. But if I have had that up to that point, I know for sure that in my head I'm having a debate. Why did you do that? What you know you're going to feel like this, or when I get up in the morning, or it disturbs my sleep, and then I'm like why did I do that? I'm not doing that again? And then it comes up again, doesn't it? And you do it again because you haven't got a problem and you've normalized it and you've justified it and you've given yourself permission.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, I mean you can go kind of two. I think two routes here as far as education is concerned. You can take it really seriously and look at the cold, hard facts and you can terrify yourself if you like with all you know the seven different types of cancer that alcohol is directly related to. You've ran, you know, we've said it, alcohol is a toxin, it's a poison and you can fully embrace that and say, okay, I'm just going to accept that. Now I understand that and this is not the stuff that I want for myself and to model for my kids, and whatever your, your wider reasons might be. Or you can know that stuff and basically put it in a box and ignore it once you get to that wedding and the trades of fizz come around or whatever the thing is.

Speaker 3:

In the very early days of making this choice for myself, I remember writing down a list of why I might want to do this, why this might feel like a good idea for me, and I've still got it kept on a Trello board on my phone. I probably wrote down about 15 different reasons. That were things like limit my risks around cancers. Um, model something different for my kids. Um, I definitely would have said you know something around the brain fog and the low level anxiety.

Speaker 3:

I would have said something about how alcohol leads to less than ideal nutrition choices. The next day, da, da, da, da. All of this written down in a great long form, and it wasn't until probably about 18 months either two years in that I went to look back at that long list of reasons why and I thought, ah, how interesting. I never could have admitted this at the time. But the place I'd come to when I'd gone all the way through that period of not drinking was, ah, I know why I want to do this. It is because I care enough and I'm able to now claim that I love myself enough for this and.

Speaker 3:

I'd made it all about the external stuff and and that was what I needed at motivation as motivation at the time I needed to think it was about my kids and about my friendships and my relationships and whatever. But what a revelation it is to go, oh, oh, actually, in the middle of all of this. It is just me looking out for and looking after myself. I never could have claimed that in the beginning, I couldn't have done, and how bold it still seems to say out loud, you know, do you know what? I'm good enough to accept this, for myself, to recognise that I am living a really joyful, happy, fulfilled life, and I just happen to be someone who doesn't drink.

Speaker 3:

And there is still the stuff going on in the background of my life. There are still all kinds of medical I'm going to use the word inconveniences in my family and for myself, and there's been perimenopause, now postmenopause, all of the external stuff that does come at us. You know, life is lifey, but I can tell you now that none of it would have been improved with drinking even the odd glass of wine or G&T throughout. I'm glad to be able to say to you that I now recognise that for me, just for me, it was a great decision.

Speaker 1:

It's so true as well, because I often will say to my clients as you know, when I'm in groups, we don't hurt the things we love. So if we know that alcohol is a poison and a toxin, why would we put that in ourselves? It is such an interest.

Speaker 2:

Oh, my god, I'm going to be really thinking about this, I mean we did like we did that whole, that whole episode on like chemicals and like not using the deodorants and not using the cleaning products.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, and yet we'll pour it directly down our mouths and we put in a full on aldehyde, which is what it gets converted to in the body. That is so toxic. We're putting that in our body and depleting our zinc and upsetting our microbiome and destroying our stomach lining. If you have the conversation with you.

Speaker 2:

I have the conversation with my children about like smoking or vaping, and you're like, you're, like you're, you're breathing this, all of these hundreds of chemicals, into your, into your lungs, but, but it's okay, have an apparel.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's very thought provoking for us, I think given that we do both drink and we often on the podcast will joke and say it like you've said before. Well, don't say that, Julie, you know, don't banish your GMT or something.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and things like that. My family nickname is Bubbles, because I like champagne so much and so, really interestingly so, in my mind when I'm I'm looking forward at an alcohol-free me. It's things like champagne, which I adore. I adore champagne. Or a crisp glass of white wine on a summer's day, or a cozy glass of red wine on a winter Sunday afternoon with a roast dinner. I don't know something like that. How do you, how do you get past those what's?

Speaker 1:

because there's no like with gin. The alcohol-free gins are really nice. The wine alcohol, that wine is not. No, it doesn't work.

Speaker 3:

No, it doesn't work and and it doesn't work. And I suppose I would say there are massive improvements. There have been, you know, even in a few short years. I suppose the two things I would say around that are one what is wrapped up in the identity of you?

Speaker 3:

you know, what are the things that are around, how you see yourself, what are you I'm sorry I'm going to use this word romanticizing. You know, if we imagine any of those beautiful pictures and that drink in the glass that is part of that mind picture that you've got. I sometimes think about that idea of you. Know the holiday selfie that we send um or put as our Facebook profile picture or whatever. That is the one with the Aperol Spritz in Italy with you know the beautiful, either the sunset or building behind us. The onlooker looking at that picture would never know what that drink was in your glass and actually Aperol is a brilliant example. There's a beautiful Italian alcohol-free aperitif called Crodino, which is a fabulous swap out. I recommend having a look at that as an example, because you identity that version of you, and so there's the identity and the perhaps what's in the romanticising part about that and who you are building and what you are becoming.

Speaker 3:

Next, what is the version of next level you? And whilst I'm not going to take away from the posy fireside red wine picture or the bubbles bubbles picture, there are the other things that can be in the glass for those occasions the kombuchas now there are some absolutely incredible fizzy kombuchas. The one I really love is called real. I think they pronounce it real, but spelt real. They do a blush and a white. They are fermented teas so they're good for the gut, but you know you're doing yourself an actual health.

Speaker 1:

I love a kombucha and there's really good ones. I actually just like um basic apple cider vinegar with sparkling water, thinking that actually I really like that and that's got amazing health benefits because you do want that kick on your palate.

Speaker 3:

You know, let's not get away from what, what else? You know what if somebody says to us something like but we're going for that really fancy dinner in that really fancy restaurant, you can't order a Diet Coke. No, you're damn right, I don't want a Diet Coke with that in that setting, because I would turn my nose up at Diet Coke because they're all of the sugar and yuck stuff that's in it. But that is. You know, if you were to look at the contents of the glass of wine, there's nothing that actually we perhaps might be going. Oh, you know, the content of that glass is life, giving health, giving deliciousness, deliciousness, um. So yes, that particular kombucha is served in really high-end restaurants because actually it's a beautiful food pairing, delicious drink to be eating in those kind of drinking, in those kinds of settings.

Speaker 3:

There are some amazing websites. So there's dry drinker, there's club soda. I'm really happy to give you the links for these kinds of places that sell really comprehensive and amazing alcohol free drinks. And Jomo Club does a subscription service where you get a monthly box and there'll be some bigger bottles of things like alcohol free gins and whatever, but also single serve cans of really interesting mocktails, delicious things you might not have tried before, and perhaps to almost see that as a phase of experimentation. Right, I'm not going to drink this for the time being. What shall I explore?

Speaker 2:

there's a whole world out there of delicious drinks available yeah, I do what I love that reframing, because I mean so in my mind. When I'm describing that to you, I feel like if I'm not going to drink alcohol, I'm taking something away. But actually when you're, when you reframe and you're putting something else in that glass, that is, it's not only giving you some sort of health benefits right there, and then just on the whole, the benefits are so much bigger than just that one sort of glass of glass of wine there. So just yeah, incredible.

Speaker 3:

And I would also say as well, to be mindful, I guess, about the situations that you find yourself in in terms of socialising.

Speaker 3:

And so let's say that cosy fireside in a pub, red wine scenario, if you are in that pub with people who you love and you want to be hanging out with and having a nice time, the stuff that is really important is the atmosphere. Is it really waiting staff, is the delicious food, is the people who love that, is the stuff that is giving you that good feeling. And if we were to take another example and let's say we were at a party or an event or a function that we didn't actually really want to be at anyway, that is not the alcohol. You know, what the alcohol is doing is making an intolerable situation tolerable. Perhaps the better answer in the first place might have been to say no thanks to that invitation, which is a whole learning curve. As well as somebody who previously was an absolutely yes, I'll go to all of the things. I have made a bit more of a conscious decision over the years to say actually no thanks I'm busy on that night to the stuff that I don't actually like and enjoy so much.

Speaker 1:

I know we've got to wrap this episode up and we could talk for a long time, but just thinking about you know anybody listening now who has that, I think, that feeling that I know I haven't got a drink problem, but I also know the thought of not drinking is scary and puts me in that deprivation mode which we don't want to be in but don't really necessarily know where to start. I mean, we'll obviously put your links in the show notes et cetera, because this is exactly what you help people with. But just a few tips on. Anyone listening now is thinking do you know what I do? I do want to reduce my drinking or stop drinking.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think, first of all, I would say to go in with. What was really helpful for me initially was an experimental mindset and to be open minded and to not send set yourself necessarily any hard and fast rules. Um, don't back yourself in a corner that ends up with you then feeling like you have failed at someone. There's I don't know if you're aware, but there are no certificates or medals handed out at the end of our lives for anything that we have massively achieved or or not, and so perhaps it is that stuff around right, I'm going to, instead of doing dry January, which you know, maybe you've done it 100 times before. You know, that was one of my indications that I could have used as something this proves I haven't got a problem with alcohol, because I'm perfectly capable of doing dry January or a sober October. Why don't you pick something more awkward? Why don't you be outrageous and pick a dry November or a dry December? I happened to stop drinking in December because I thought to myself right, if I can do all of these Christmas parties, this canapé evening, this thing at the neighbors, christmas eve, day, boxing day and new year's eve all without a drink, then that would give me really good information about carrying my experiment forward. There are some brilliant recommendations and resources. Um, if anybody wants to sign up to my five-day experiment, that gives some really good tools about starting out in the first place.

Speaker 3:

I would also be mindful of your judgments that you're putting onto yourself and that you're thinking that other people have about you. I would say we spend a lot of time worrying about what other people are thinking about us and in reality, other people are mostly thinking about themselves, not very much about us and what we're doing. And I would also caution something around the labelling that we think is out there and I, for shorthand, you know, one of the things I say I do is that I am a sober coach, but I would rarely describe myself as sober or alcohol free or any of these labels. They can end up feeling weighty and heavy. I would pretty much say that the least interesting thing about me is that I happen not to drink. I'm just somebody who chooses not to. So I would say around that be mindful about how you frame it. Go into it feeling joyful about what it might bring you instead of heavy hearted about the state of deprivation that you might be in.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'd make some words that part you were saying about judgment that I often feel that when people are going looking at you, going what you're not going to drink, it's not that they're worried about you not drinking, it's that they they're trying to put themselves in that position and they can't see it, or that they think, because you're saying you're not drinking, that there's something wrong with them drinking given you taking their permission away.

Speaker 1:

It's all right if they're. If you're drinking, it's all right for them to drink. Yeah, it's that, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, so interesting.

Speaker 2:

Can I just reflect back on? I was thinking about you on your sofa with your family and and the glass of wine, and then what you were talking about, about with your list and and it's suddenly being actually about valuing you and being able to sit in in a life that you've created and knowing that you are valuable and amazing enough to accept that, to, to know that you can have it, that you're, that you're allowed to have it, and you don't need to like fuzzy around the edges with it, you can just embrace it and like wholeheartedly go oh yeah, I've got. You got everything that I wanted to create and I'm worthy of having it and I just yeah, I just I loved that Gorgeous.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, your motto is drink less, live better and, as we always say, we know you're in the Facebook group. We would love to carry on this conversation. I think that it is going to really get people thinking and yeah, we'll see. We'll see what comes up. If you're happy to answer questions there in that group, brilliant. Well, thank you so much for coming on. You've been an absolute star. Lovely to chat with you, thank you.

Speaker 2:

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Speaker 1:

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Speaker 2:

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