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Far 2 Fabulous
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Julie, a Registered Nutritional Therapist with over 20 years of expertise, and Catherine, a former nurse turned Pilates Instructor and Vitality Coach, blend wisdom and laughter seamlessly.
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Far 2 Fabulous
The Hidden Power of Your Gut Microbiome [Guest Episode]
Episode 26
Have you ever wondered about the connection between your gut health and overall well-being? This episode promises to enlighten you with expert insights from Josh Netherwood, co-founder of Your Gut Map. We journey through Josh's fascinating transition from a sports nutritionist in Australia to a gut health specialist in the UK. With his extensive experience at York Test Laboratories and Cambridge Nutritional Sciences, Josh will share why practitioner-guided testing and personalized approaches are vital for long-term digestive health solutions.
Amidst the growing trend of people taking ownership of their personal health, we discuss the limitations of the NHS's reactive healthcare system and the benefits of private healthcare options. Josh highlights how comprehensive nutritional advice and personalized testing can help manage chronic diseases and conditions like IBS. We also touch on the practical aspects and innovations in gut microbiome testing, specifically the advanced 16S genetic sequencing and user-friendly sample collection methods that Your Gut Map employs.
Finally, Josh delves into the power of personalized microbiome-based nutrition planning and its impact on various health aspects, from energy levels to sleep quality. He also explores the significant connection between gut health and menopause, providing actionable dietary and lifestyle changes to alleviate symptoms. By contrasting the dietary diversity of our ancestors with modern processed food consumption, we uncover the importance of maintaining a healthy gut in today's society. Don't miss this treasure trove of information that could transform your approach to health and well-being.
If you would like to explore gut testing, please contact Julie on julie@julieclarknutrition.co.uk
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Welcome to Far Too Fabulous hosted by Julie and Catherine, join us on a mission to embrace your fabulousness and redefine wellness. Get ready for some feistiness, inspiration, candid chats and humour as we journey together towards empowered wellbeing.
Speaker 1:Let's dive in. Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the podcast. Now today, catherine and I are joined by a special guest, josh Netherwood from your Gut Map, and I'll let Josh introduce himself. But I want to know, josh, really, how did you end up becoming the co-founder of a gut lab?
Speaker 3:Well, firstly, thank you for having me. It's lovely to get on with our practitioners and talk everything gut having me. It's lovely to get on with our practitioners and talk everything guts. I talk a lot about stool and blood and saliva, so it's nice to actually talk about health sometimes with with our practitioners.
Speaker 3:But my background actually didn't start within the gut field. I actually started out as a sports nutritionist. So I went to university and, like any aspiring scientist, and I actually graduated in the area of sport and exercise science and then I had this real passion for nutrition as the demands for my sport in particular took over. So, you know, whilst I was playing field hockey at university, I was doing that, for you know, three to five times a week and there was a huge amount of demands on my body and I just gained this huge passion for, you know, having the nutrition to fuel my body. So I then moved into sports nutrition.
Speaker 3:Now, with my ambitions and in sports, I actually ended up moving to Australia. So I lived in Australia and from there I was a sports nutritionist and I was there for a few years and I was looking after certain clubs. I was doing quite a lot of sports development at the time and obviously playing at quite a high standard in the Melbourne Victoria Premier League. So when I came back to the UK, it was around 2012 and I'm a Yorkshireman and I actually got my first job in the gut health space with York Test Laboratories. So I actually worked under their sister brand and which was called Larissian. So we work business to business. So we worked directly with practitioners because one of the things that I knew I wanted to do throughout my career was absolutely work with practitioners with the aim of longevity and health. Now I always found that over the years, you know when people have been buying online and they might do this on their own and you know, get the 30 minutes of advice with their reports, and then they're let out into the wild and sometimes I don't find that it's great from an adherence point of view. So I always love the concept of working with practitioners and supporting them with diagnostic testing, and that's what I did for a long number of years offering food sensitivity testing, adrenal function testing, liver check testing, diabetes checks, micronutrient profiling. So I was doing that from 2012 to 2018 and you know, we all know what happened in that year the pandemic. The pandemic happened. So I unfortunately um well, unfortunately, unfortunately. I think all things happen for a reason but I actually left Laurissian because it kind of discontinued as the pandemic wasn't allowing practitioners necessarily to do things face to face anymore.
Speaker 3:So I actually moved to a company called Cambridge Nutritional Sciences. So they were a UK-based business who were offering, again, adrenal function testing, food sensitivity testing, hscrp testing for acute inflammatory responses, and for me, again, I was working within the practitioner space and I was operating under their UK and European division. So with that in mind, I traveled Europe a lot and I was installing laboratory-based systems. From there. I actually managed to commercialize and market the concept of gut health testing in about 25 different countries.
Speaker 3:So it was only in 2023 that I wanted to embark on my own journey, which had a emphasis of practitioner only testing. So all the businesses I've mentioned they do have a retail arm and that I wanted to basically branch out and really get to the root cause of gut health based diagnostic testing and microbiome testing was something that I've always had in the background. I've always been very eager to understand more about the microbiome and the bacteria set and having food sensitivity testing as an alternative option for other symptoms outside of digestion. So, all in all, I've got over a decade worth of experience and I've worked very closely with practitioners, interpreting thousands of reports. But it's been a long old journey, um.
Speaker 3:But you know, ultimately I'm in a position now where we're developing really strong relationships with practitioners to, you know, really get to the root cause of things, I think. I think that's always the emphasis of what, um what I've wanted to do. So, yes, obviously I work with yourself, julie, which is, um, my pleasure. And you know, ultimately, we, you know, we go, we go out there and support people when it comes to digestive health. So, I mean, that's my, that's my, that's my journey, um, in a short synopsis, yeah, that's great.
Speaker 1:Um, yes, I am one of your practitioners and do my stool testing through you guys and I was very fortunate I realized as the years go on how fortunate I was to be trained by someone that was very naturopathic in their thinking and I've mentioned it a few times on this podcast that I trained over. Well, I've been a nutritional therapist now for 24 years so a long time and the person I trained with was Dr Lawrence Plaskett, who was a naturopathic nutritionist, and he drilled into us the importance of gut health. He said do not let your clients leave your clinic without a probiotic. That's what he said all them years ago. I know things have moved on about probiotics and Catherine and I had a chat about those in the episode last week. So, yeah, it's very interesting the importance of gut health and I think you know a lot of people are becoming aware of it. So you know are you seeing that yourself? That you know the general public are understanding the term microbiome now?
Speaker 3:A hundred percent. And one thing I always like to cycle back to is actually the concept of food intolerances, and I found that this was something that was really heavily commercialized and marketed over the last 10, 20 years or so. Commercialized and marketed over the last 10, 20 years or so. Social media people were using them. You had, you know, the aisles in your supermarkets had loads of alternative foods that were available and all of a sudden, your restaurants, you've got gluten-free, you've got dairy-free, vegan, vegetarian, and that, for me, was the the start of the complementary testing arena. Now, back then, microbiome didn't necessarily have the abundance of research. Complementary testing arena Now, back then, microbiome didn't necessarily have the abundance of research that's available now. So we are finding that there are a number of injections within the general public in terms of documentaries. So I mean, I'll talk about Hack your Health.
Speaker 3:Hack your Health is a great introductory and program and that basically discusses the concept of microbiome, the industrial microbiome, the pressures on society and, ultimately, what we're going through in terms of the gut evolution and the human race really trying to, you know, put piece together how to live their life in a healthy manner whilst there's so many pressures and influences around us from food to production of food, to cross reactivities, to stresses in lifestyles.
Speaker 3:So there's that. I've definitely seen an injection of interest. When it comes to the microbiome, and you know we've all heard of the zoe project as well. You might have heard of this, you might have seen that there's been adverts available for that and that is a research concept and for those listeners who don't know what the zoe project is, and they will ultimately try and understand your microbiome and your insulin through glucose measures and also your fatty acid profiling, and but what they're doing at the moment is they're trying to understand the concepts of insulin resistance in association with metabolic efficiencies. Now there's limited research available for that, which is obviously why they're doing that research model right now. Um, you might have seen that there's all of these zoe shots in m&s. I don't know how much they're like four, five, six pounds.
Speaker 1:I know I've never paid for for one no, we, we had a bit of a, we had a bit of a. Um well, I had a bit of a rant about it. I nearly took cover when you said Zoe quite honestly no, I mean for me.
Speaker 3:You know, I believe wholeheartedly that any sort of diagnostic testing solution should not be assigned to subscription models. It's something I've got a real problem with. I think that ultimately you could subscribe your life if you could Weure everything. You know, I point blank refuse to insure my phone and you know, because I feel like if I insured everything that I have in my life I would never have enough money for anything. And you know, ultimately I feel that when you're put onto a subscription model for nutrition-based advice, it turns into this commercialized concept and it's not necessarily having, I think, the customer's interests at heart.
Speaker 3:So, you know, I always believe any diagnostic testing that we do has to have not just the result, the intervention, intervention, the nutrition, the re-inoculation protocols, the supplementation advice. But that's part of what we do, it shouldn't be add-ons, you know. It should be a part of it. And I think that, if I was to say anything I think that is a shortfall and I have experience in the industry is the subscription models, because I just don't feel that they're necessary all the time. And you know, ultimately we need to give people all the information possible. Finances are, you know, or not? I think that it's uh, it's not the way forward yeah, it's a good point.
Speaker 1:I think my rant about the Zoe product in the supermarket M&S, isn't it that they partnered with was the amount of sugar in those shots and, as someone that knows myself and you, josh, that putting sugar into a gut health product, that it's like saying that you can eat an apple with chocolate and you get the benefits of the apple.
Speaker 3:It doesn't make any sense to me chocolate and you get the benefits of the apple. It doesn't make any sense to me. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, ultimately I feel that tim tim specter, who's obviously a part of the zoe project, is also a part of half your health. Um, you know that he is a part of of that documentary, but what I do like about it, given given the program, the credit, is that, um, the concept of nutrition and microbiome is really brought to the forefront. Yeah, so one thing that I really feel that that people would benefit from.
Speaker 3:I always say to any lay person who doesn't know anything about microbiome don't watch half your health. It's really interesting to watch, it's really palatable as well, it's not too over complicated and some interesting concepts, nice animations and but, yes, ultimately I feel that it really has brought you know nutrition and microbiome and you know the the interesting science coming with fetal implants. You know the newly FDA approved and people in public sounds horrible and not not very nice, but you know the science is really coming forward and I think that's what that documentary does and I think people are interested, they're curious and I think that's where people are at with microbiome now yeah, definitely, I think that program was was very good, I think, like you said, a great introduction into understanding at least the link between it and you know, even some some tips as to where to start.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, I've definitely had a lot of interest in my practice off the back of that program and and yeah, we've spoken about it on a previous episode, haven't we? So, with regards to things like these programs and testing becoming, I've noticed that people are more open to private testing. Now I've seen quite an increase in people wanting to take ownership of their own health, which is thank goodness, goodness, hallelujah for that, because, yeah, one of our frustrations, I think, on our rants is is just that, you know, not taking ownership of your own health, isn't it?
Speaker 2:no, just go, yeah, going to your medical practitioner, whoever they are, and just sort of almost handing your power over to them and going what do I do rather than? Rather than leading the show and using them as a partner to help you with your well-being and I always talk about this in in any discussion or talk that I do.
Speaker 3:It's the vicious cycle of of the nhs. Um, you know, for me the nhs is a, it's a national treasure, but people forget that this was actually created off the back of the world war. We were looking to be very reactive to our wounded soldiers and getting them back out there and you know, over the years we've just experienced so much pressure with our population with the rise in chronic disease, that the NHS is not a proactive platform, unfortunately, it's a reactive platform and you know a lot of people who see their GPs, I do think, suffer from the white coat syndrome. They will believe a lot that's being said and, ultimately, what we have to remember. I feel in our space that GPs are fantastic for what they do when it comes to disease and understanding the interventions, but are there some downfalls with that in terms of prescriptions of medications? You know that does bring us into this pharmaceutical cycle. You know I can definitely name a few people off the top of my head who would have been on medication for over a decade because that's what they believed that they were. They may have had particular symptoms and they just took that medication. They'll go every Wednesday. It's dropping their envelope or their form to get their repeat prescriptions and it becomes a stigma for them that that's just them and they do have this particular symptom that I feel that what people need to be more aware of is that they have so much more control over over their life, and I feel that food is the one thing that does that.
Speaker 3:Food is something that we buy, we consciously cook it, we store it, we, you know, freeze it. You know all of these things are what we can control and having the guidance from professionals like yourselves to understand how to put that nutrition into their life in a personalized manner, because unfortunately, the GPs are not trained to the standard of a nutritional therapist. They have a course part within their degree, let's say, and nutrition is not one of those. It's actually marked, and nor do they have to attend those nutrition elements. So you do find that a lot of people who suffer from digestive based issues going through the public health care system just find themselves landing these really difficult diets low FODMAPs, for example. If you've got IBS, the likelihood is you'll be advised to do low FODMAPs. So really difficult diet. It's very tasteless actually and you know their adherence is so low because of how difficult they actually are, but they just again. They're going through this cycle of trying to understand how then they start to all of a sudden avoid eggs or gluten because that's just the in thing. It's something that they've seen, something that they've been advised to do and, you know, through all of this process, they're still experiencing issues and experiencing symptoms.
Speaker 3:Now, the only way I feel that you get any sort of support through the NHS with digestive issues is if you're at the chronic state. But how can we actually prevent that chronic state from occurring? And that's where the proactive nature of complementary medicine and diagnostics comes into play. I feel and in answer to your question, I think there was a statistic that there's been over a 250% rise in people sourcing their own testing, their own private healthcare insurance over the last couple of years. So is that a shift in the market, that people are being more proactive? I think so. I think people are fed up of not having the answers. I think that people may be fed up of the waiting times and maybe being rejected or not being taken seriously, and you can see the amount of companies that come out of the woodwork in support of that, that. Yes, I feel that there.
Speaker 3:If I had any sort of um opinions on the matter, when it came to private health insurance, I would always say get it when you're young, because I'm not a conspiracy or anything like that, but I do feel that the nhs will at some point become privatized and I feel that there may be an insurance then on that where premiums are high and if you're insured and get that underwriting when you're young and you don't have those chronic issues, you're going to be saving a lot in the long term.
Speaker 3:But obviously we know that privatization cuts out the um, the working class or those who can't necessarily afford things, which then leads us into this state similar to america, like obamacare, which was pretty much abolished after a year or so. So, yeah, if I had any advice, I'd always say you, if you can afford to get testing, then explore, but explore correctly and explore appropriately. And that's where I feel that you guys come in is, you know, exploring those symptoms and really trying to figure out what testing is the most appropriate, rather than just testing blind, which I'm sure people have come to you guys and said can I have this? Can I have? You're like why? Why do you want this?
Speaker 2:yeah, because it looks fashionable, let's. Yeah, I love that you work in collaboration with these guys, because that's it. If somebody came to you or a company like you and just got the test done, ended up with the results, and then they may as well not have done it because you don't, they don't know what to do with the results, and then they may as well not have done it because you don't, they don't know what to do with the results, whereas when you work in collaboration with somebody like julie, they can, they can guide you. It's I mean, it's far more efficient as well, I suppose.
Speaker 3:I think so, and that was the main aim of your roadmap as a business that we wanted to work closely with not just nutritional therapists. We work with functional medicine practitioners, we work with naturopathic practitioners, homeopaths, osteopaths, chiropractors but again, it's about appropriate testing within that industry. So, you know, for Julie, gut microbiome testing is probably going to be the most appropriate because of digestive health, but then again I also work with chiropractors who look at acute inflammation to help improve, you know, joint swelling, aches, pains, arthritis, through food sensitivity testing. So I actually work within, you know, the space of complementary medicine, but offering different testing, that's, targeting different symptoms. And I feel that that is where, you know, the longevity of your health is going to really, you know, come into its own, because you're going to a specific practitioner for a specific problem and with that you're going to get appropriate testing. And what we do within your gut map is we help to educate practitioners as to what we see to be appropriate testing.
Speaker 3:And the reason why I keep saying appropriate testing, by the way, is because I have found that throughout the years that I've been working, that there's a lot of testing out there, like you said, but it's just popular, it's just oh, you know I saw someone have this test and I find that you know in the area of gut health that food sensitivity or food intolerance only businesses kind of sits within this capitalist model where you're always being tested because over the longer term you know we really need to be addressing the microbiome.
Speaker 3:The microbiome in itself harmonizes the bacteria and the balance and reduces the leaky gut syndrome and, you know, really eats away at that mucosal wall that does cause food sensitivities. So you know food sensitivity in the businesses on their own, without microbiome testing attached to it, find a suspicious cycle just test, test, test, test test, because you're always going to have some form of reaction if you're not addressing the root cause within the digestive system. So yeah, I've definitely come up against that over the long term that people have seen no improvements, slow improvements, or maybe they just haven't had the right testing for their symptoms. So it's great to work with you know, people like you guys, where you know what testing is appropriate for what symptom. I think that's really important and empowering as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we're all about empowerment in health here. So, yeah, that's a good point. I think, going back to you know we touched about the NHS being, you know, reactive and wanting to look more at preventative health. Given the amount of information that we now know about the gut, microbiome, and especially off the back of tv programs like hack your health, as, as someone that isn't in this field and has watched that program and doesn't necessarily have symptoms, is there a place in preventative medicine to get your gut tested so that you know what's going on, so that you can make changes to prevent things, uh, coming up later in life? Because we know that there's a link with mental health, we know that there's a link with the immune system. There's so many things that the gut links to 100.
Speaker 3:I think we have to remember as well microbiome testing is clinical in nature. You know it's something that is done by microbiologists. So when it comes to the bacteria sets, one of the things that we really want to help people understand is are you balanced or are you imbalanced, and is there an opportunity for you to correct that through nutrition? Now, those people who don't get the opportunity to correct their nutrition, you know they may experience, you know, chronic health conditions, whether it comes to gut dysbiosis or metabolic dysfunction, whatever that might be. They can get the testing on the NHS. This is what people don't realize is that things like H pylori as a bacteria which, in harmful or in abundance, can be really dangerous for your stomach, and ultimately that is available. It's something that they do already, but again, you have to be on your last leg. It's something that you don't get just by asking because you know that they will have a cause or a reason to do so.
Speaker 3:I think as well, we have to consider the technological advancements within diagnostic testing as well, because traditional microbiome testing is very much large store sample. Put that through a laboratory on old school. They call it pcr methodology, and what a lot of the, let's say next generation businesses, like your gut map are doing, are advanced technology which actually integrates AI. And there I say AI, it's not my robot, you know, it's a governed artificial intelligence by our own board of microbiologists.
Speaker 3:But I feel that the NHS are scared of technological advancements in the area of diagnostics, and I always say that complementary medicine and diagnostics is about 30 years ahead of the NHS and the practices that they're, I suppose, instilled within their day to day practice. So I feel that, yes, it should be available through the NHS, but ultimately there needs to be a consideration when it comes to open-mindedness as well. They need to be open-minded to the idea of next generation sequencing, which is what we use for our microbiome testing and understanding the advantages versus PCR methodology and also the construction of diet plans, because the NHS as well, dietitians are there to support disease, whereas nutritional therapists are there to support the concept of improved lifestyle, reducing discomforts and symptoms, so you don't get to that chronic state. So I feel that there needs to be a reform if there was ever to have a a mass introduction of diagnostic testing within the nhs.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that's really interesting, that that that mirroring of the proactive and reactive and and how you guys being 30 years in front, just because you get the opportunity to kind of almost play, play with it and and work with it, whereas, yeah, I mean, our poor old NHS is so bogged down it doesn't have just doesn't have room to be able to to think outside the box and is just constantly fighting fires. So it's a really interesting view.
Speaker 3:I mean, you know you start a student school as well. You know, I think people forget this, that. You know, when I was in school, I learned how to cook. I learned how to cook a cake I never got. I never learned how to cook properly from scratch and what a healthy meal looked like, what my plate should look like in terms of fiber, meat, protein, carbs, fat, and I think that is really important because, you know, we do have an obesity epidemic on our hands at the moment and you know, is that because our you know next generation aren't necessarily being educated about food and nutrition. You know, I feel it is as important as maths. You know, because you know how many people use maths on a day-to-day basis? Not not many people, um, but you know, people eat every day and I think that's really important.
Speaker 3:And I say similar things to my wife about finances. I don't think people know enough about finances either within school and how to manage money, and I think it's a similar thing when it comes to nutrition. So I do feel like it starts a at home, but also in school as well, that I don't feel like society actually gives us that opportunity to improve nutrition and we, you know, look, I'm at my son's in nursery and you know I have this app and I see what he's eating and you know some of the things are questionable that he eats. Um, you know, very high salt content. You know I sorry I had a corned beef hash, which isn't something I would feed a one-year-old. Quite, quite truthfully, I feel like it's quite salty. And again, it's the provision it's challenging people. But then do you feel in society that you're being outcasted because you're challenging it, and then you know, I feel that there is a pressure in society that doesn't necessarily give you the opportunity to have a healthier lifestyle as such. So, yeah, there's definitely opportunities to improve from a young age.
Speaker 1:I would say yeah, we could seriously go down the rabbit hole there, because that is a massive subject and I am right on the same page as you. I am beyond frustrated with what happens with food, because you know you can't. As a nutritionist, I know what you know and when you have, you know your children and you want the very best for them with regards to their health. With your knowledge, it's so, so difficult, and I do remember that when, when you hand over the power to nurseries and then school and it gets worse, josh, as they get older. So I got two in secondary school now and the food is so awful. Yeah, it's impacting everything about their development, their concentration, their behavior, their hormones and and nobody's really shouting about it loud enough.
Speaker 2:I don't think that's continuously putting those plasters over, isn't it? I mean, they're yes, so they're not behaving. And then there's there's labels on their behavior rather than looking to see what might be causing it. And you're right with the teenagers. I remember Anya begging me not to go into the school on a warpath about all the vending machines around the school, and I certainly I've promised to post this video before on the podcast, but my vivid memory of Julie on the rampage about um was it?
Speaker 1:I went on a school trip to help out when my daughter was in year one or two and I commented about the packed lunches provided by the school and also by the parents, and it kicked off big time on social media and I got called into the school and I was told that I had to take those posts down and I wasn't allowed to go on any other school trips after that and all I did was I didn't mention the school, I didn't mention anyone in particular, I just said I was. I observed what the children were eating and compared it to what at lunch my daughter had and I had on the school trip. And yeah, it was.
Speaker 2:It was unbelievable, wasn't it yeah, really fired up, and it is you, are it? Yeah, you're almost seen to be a troublemaker when you're trying to improve your health and and the health of people around you.
Speaker 3:I feel that always needs someone who is willing and brave enough to do things like that, to really challenge the system, because without challenge, nothing really changes. And I think there is a movement as well at the moment when it comes to. You know, let's talk about Gen Z's for a minute. I think they, they, have a fantastic attribute towards their general health and well-being. You know how, how much pressure they put on themselves.
Speaker 3:I don't think it's as much as, let's say, the, the boomers or the millennials that I think that you know, without necessarily having the influence of parents and the influence of other individuals, whether it's teachers or schools, I do feel that you know there is a shift as well in a generational thing. So hopefully, fingers crossed, the, the gen z's, could be the, the next light in terms of educating people. And the only reason why I mentioned gen z's is because the majority of vegans and vegetarians are actually gen z's and that's a movement. You know, that's uh, whether it's eco-friendly or um, I could have that debate in another podcast, but you know, I'm hopeful that you know, in the future they are going to challenge more just because of you know what they have experienced as well, because they've been born into a pressured NHS, so I feel that they're actually looking for more solutions themselves as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, these guys really need it, don't they? Because they, they've got, they've got it coming at them from every single direction. So they, yeah. So if you can just look after your, your health and well-being, you're always on the sort of on the leading foot, basically, aren't you yeah?
Speaker 1:exactly, um, just uh, because we can get we. We often go off on a tangent on these podcast episodes, don't we just pulling it back to you know the gut microbiome and off the back of that tv program and stuff and just thinking about our audience that are listening to us. What happens when somebody sends their stool sample to you? What? What's the actual process and what do they get back when they have a test done that looks at their microbiome?
Speaker 2:other than as it lands in your lab.
Speaker 3:You go, yep so the first thing that I like to say is that you know your gut map, have made a principle which is really easy for for people to do at home. So you know people may have done a test within the nhs. I usually call it the ice cream scoop test at times.
Speaker 3:You know they might have to deposit their stall and then get their old spoon out and scoop it out. Some people might net it, for example, as well put a nice sheet over the toilet. So the overarching principle is that it's not pleasant the way that people are currently taking their store samples, which actually puts people off because they don't really want to get involved in anything like that, and I've known some people who've had to take a stool sample and then put it in their freezer and their poor lasagna is going. Why me?
Speaker 3:yeah absolutely what we've done as a business is we've actually validated a methodology that allows you to collect a small sample of stool from tissue paper. So ultimately it's an easier of stool from tissue paper. So ultimately it's an easier, it's a quicker test that allows you to collect a stool sample without all the faff I always say, and what we've got is a way in which we can stabilize the stool sample through using a dna buffer solution. So essentially, when you once you've swabbed the tissue paper um with the stool, then you stir that into a solution. It lasts for years, so it's really stable. So there's no pressure, there's no freezing, the lasagna is good, and you know.
Speaker 3:From that point, we actually send all of our samples off to Austria, in Vienna, and so your gut map and myself and Thomas Cookson and who own the business, we've had the privilege and the opportunity to travel the world with our testing. So I remember Thomas, my business partner, I think we spent 90 days a year in the country for a good seven years or so. So we've had the opportunity to be exposed to some fantastic laboratories, and the laboratory that we use in Vienna are basically experts in the field of DNA genetic sequencing and people might think well, why are you talking about DNA testing when you're talking about microbiome? The concepts that we do is something called 16S genetic sequencing. So ultimately, we have a bank of 2016 known bacterias and every bacteria has a DNA structure, and what we're doing when we receive, you know, the listener store sample, for example is we actually match what DNA is present based on the bacteria that's there. It's a little bit like a dating profile, and we're matching the bacteria that that particular individual has versus the bank of bacteria that we have in our portfolio, so that identifies what bacteria is at present.
Speaker 3:The methodology also looks at the degenerative properties of the bacteria, so ultimately, we can understand concentrations. So if it degrades quicker, then you've got a lower concentration. If it degrades slower, you've got a higher concentration. Now, what we're doing is not groundbreaking when you look at other organizations. What's different from ourselves is that, rather than taking the raw data of all of this bacteria and put it in a glorified spreadsheet is what I call it and presenting that to a customer, customers become overwhelmed with the amount of bacteria that's being detailed to them because it's like. It's like learning greek mythology, guys. It's just no. I I don't even know all of the bacterias and, psychologically, patients listen to the first, the middle, the last or the worst thing that you told them so yeah after the four things that you have been told you know.
Speaker 3:That, then means all right, well, I'm going to go home and I'm going to go into google. Oh, my word, I've got high levels of h pylori. Oh, my word, I've got x, y and z. So it goes into this, this, this kind of like self-diagnosis um area, and what we're trying to do is we're trying to reduce the, the interpretation hours for not just our practitioners, but also to provide tangible reports for customers. That allows you to understand not just the bacteria but what it means in real life. And then what? What are the interventions that go alongside that and that's what I feel a lot of microbiome companies are actually missing? Is that intervention? So you know, I've got a bacteria x, y and z and these are in high or abundance and they're bad for me. So what? What does that mean to me? I don't really know.
Speaker 3:So what your gut Map do is we essentially take the raw data of the bacteria and we put it for our own patent software. Now, as the research for microbiome has been developing over the last 10 years or so, that research is within our software. So what we are allowed to do with that is, take X bacteria and that bacteria is associated with a particular research paper that's associated with Y condition. So what that allows us to do is understand the health risks of that individual. And similarly, when it comes to nutrition, we have a certain bacteria and there's a research paper in association with a nutrient or a food that might help to replenish that bacteria or deplete a bad bacteria. We're actually utilizing ai software, that we're doing it in a safe way. And the reason why I was mentioning before about, you know, I robot and terminator because we're not letting our ai go loose. You know it's governed by microbiologists and nutritional therapists, so it's not evolving on its own, which I feel is um important at this moment in time. So I think ai is developing too quickly and that might mean that there are inaccuracies. So what we do is we actually take our ai and we make sure that we're feeding it the right stuff. So ai is only as good as you know what direction you point it in, but also what you're feeding it as well. So we make sure that we're reviewing the research so there are no contradictions, because with any research there are positives and negatives to it, but our microbiome microbiologists sorry, I've got to weigh up what is more beneficial for that individual.
Speaker 3:So quick highlights from what we do with the reports and the reports usually take about three weeks once they land in the laboratory is that we can understand the individual's microbiome diversity. Are they balanced, are they imbalanced? And ultimately, within our microbiome we want a nice harmony of, let's say, 50-50 with good and bad bacteria. So when it comes to understanding whether there's an imbalance, then we know that we have to put some form of interventions in place. You can also look at things like microbiome age, which I call the egotistical measure, um, but equally it could go the other way. So we can understand, with certain bacteria that we know degenerate over time as we age, what your microbiome looks like, and that can be linked to things like longevity as well. So you know, I'm 31, I've got a, mine's actually 32. It's a little bit embarrassing my microbiome age, but if I was 25 I'd be going, yeah, great. So you know we can look into that from longevity and general health. Then we can look at the bacterias. But rather than throwing 200 bacterias at you, I'm only going to show you nine because I believe those to be important. I believe those to be the most, let's say mainstream lactobacillus bifidobacterium prevotella, you so. So you know all of these things that you know our practitioners can talk around quite consistently.
Speaker 3:Then what we do with that whole software is we bring the bacteria to life, and this is where everything gets a little bit more interesting is that we can understand how the bacteria can affect your metabolism, how you break down macronutrients. So are you better at breaking down fats, proteins or carbs, and could that lead you on to a certain diet model that's good for you? You can also look at your susceptibility to things like vitamin deficiencies, food sensitivities, autoimmune disease, sleep deprivation, and I feel that's really powerful because you know a lot of patients that I see will be doing blind diagnostics, because a lot of digestive symptoms they have their own. Well, they have their own symptoms assigned to them, but ultimately a lot of them come under similar testing SIBO, candida testing and celiac testing and I call it blind diagnostics. So what I love to do with regards to the microbiome report is look at what you are more susceptible to, based around the bacteria set, and a good example for it is things like SIBO. So we can say whether you've got a heightened level of, or susceptibility to, getting, sibo.
Speaker 3:Now, sibo testing is more associated with hydrogen methane breath tests, but what we can look at are three specific bacteria like enterococcus cosridium viticulefaliococcus. That took me a long time to learn, by the way, my Yorkshire accent tends to get in the way but what we actually want to do is say, okay, look, we have a heightened level of these bacteria which is triggering the symptoms. It's actually associated with SIBO. So let's actually go one step further and do the SIBO test. So actually we're giving people an opportunity to save money by not spending blindly on diagnostics, which is obviously where practitioners come in, understand the symptoms and then they can take it from there and but you know, ultimately we want to give them an understanding as to what health risks that they may be associated with as well. So we actually look at things like um autism, which is huge at the moment and I'm getting quite a lot of people coming to us for autism and we also look at things like adhd and heart disease and thyroid issues and Crohn's ulcerative colitis. So within the report, we're actually highlighting what your risks are and when it comes to disease. So it's not diagnosing within this injury. You can't diagnose, you can't cure, but ultimately it's a guide and how can we mitigate the risks? And how we mitigate the risks within our?
Speaker 3:Our test is offering nutrition-based advice. Now, within you know the microbiome itself. It's very interchangeable all of the bacterias, as to how you live and how, what foods that you consume. So what we do is we have 300 foods that essentially look into, um, the nutritional value of that, how it can help overcome the health conditions, the probiotic and prebiotic element of that food, viscosity of the food, the dietary fiber content that will stimulate short-same fatty acid production, and foods that could help lower the pH level as well within the body. So we're actually taking all of those concepts with research to give you a list of foods to essentially avoid, limit and consume to the best of your ability. So we do say that our diet planning is not as restrictive as other testing, um, but it's giving people a guideline as to what they need to eat a little bit more of and what they need to be a lot more conscious of. And we do find through our, our own research that adherence levels are better when we go off a 80 20 principle or a 90 10 principle where they can have all of the foods that will replenish their microbiome 80, 90 percent of the time, but then maybe you are having a few reds in there, you know, 10, 20 percent of the time.
Speaker 3:Just, you know we've got to live. You know, we always find that diets are these straight lines and you know, life happens and we zigzag and we have to know how to, you know, deviate as well and not punish ourselves. I think, um, so our diet plan, we always say, is very realistic. It's very whole food driven. So we're not saying to people, your, your case is insensitive, you can never have dairy again. We're saying well, actually, you know, you actually deal very well with yogurt. You know it's rich in lactobacillus and bifidobacterium and you're actually quite low on that, that's so you can't tolerate cow's milk. So we're actually giving people more options, which I think is a lot better for people when it comes to adhering to diets and sometimes I don't like the word diet, um, it's more informed we've spoken about that.
Speaker 2:It makes us prickle a little bit informed food choices.
Speaker 3:Um, so, you know, we're basically guiding them as to how to lead their life to help, you know, harmonize the bacteria and ultimately feel more energy. You know, the research that we've done is that people found, not just with improvements in their, you know, digestive based symptoms ids, constipation by over 80% in six weeks, which is great, but the secondary benefits, things like weight loss, motivation, energy, sleep quality, better bowel movements and I think those secondary benefits are actually quite powerful when it comes to your application in everyday life. Yeah, yeah absolutely so.
Speaker 2:Is it those the sorts of things that would, um would bring somebody to julie or to you? Are things like changes in their, their bowel habits or discomfort? Are those the general things that will bring them to you?
Speaker 3:yeah, so I mean usually I mean julian at a better place than me, because I'm just the practitioner person.
Speaker 3:But yeah, I mean, ultimately, I think people come to us because they've had longstanding digestive based issues and you know that could be very wide scale, from diarrhea, constipation, ibs, ibd, crohn's you know, the list goes on and on and on and on.
Speaker 3:But we do find that, you know, the microbiome testing is a fantastic solution to understanding what your next steps are, because you know, out of all of the symptoms, digestive is the ones that I find crippling at times and it's a minefield when it comes to diagnostics. But I do feel that microbiome cuts straight through the middle and it does really help to understand what an individual's core could be corrected. And you know that's where our practitioners come in, like like Julie. You know really understanding the person. You know inside and out, literally um, and then obviously you know how a protocol can be created around them, specifically because everyone's different, everyone's magnitude of their symptoms different, everyone's circumstances are different and you know, I feel that with any sort of diagnostic personalization, it just has to be at the forefront of anything yeah, I have to agree, I think testing does allow you to really personalize someone's plan, and I use the gut test a lot because it's like I said, I've trained all those years ago.
Speaker 1:It's been drilled into me that you know everything starts and ends with a gut. So, yeah, it's, people do have symptoms, but I will typically run a gut test if someone has mental health issues, because there's such a connection there Skin issues the skin reflects the gut, right. So, yeah, I always look at that and I deal with a lot of children. So, yeah, it can be incredibly helpful when looking at things like autism, adhd. Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 3:I'm seeing more and more people come through the menopause as well. Quite truthfully, I've seen there be a huge spike in females going through the menopause trying to see hormonal balance, because I think when we look at the microbiome, you know it's the regulator. It's the regulator of our hormones, it's the regulator of our mental health and neurotransmitters, like what you mentioned with the gut brain axis, that you know the gut is responsible for producing 90 of our serotonin. So we really are what we eat, and to a degree, and that you know. How can we improve the symptoms of the menopause? I'm not going to say that it's going to cure it, absolutely not. But if we can, you know, control certain elements within our life that reduce the magnitude and the frequency, you know we're just going to make it a little bit easier to go through are there any um common things?
Speaker 2:you, you, you see around the menopause and and so, from that, are there any common things that you would, that you or julie would then advise from those results?
Speaker 3:I mean, what I usually people report back to me is like, say, the magnitude and frequency. Maybe when they do a microbiome test they don't have as many hot hot flushes, for example, or they feel generally a little bit more energized and they might not necessarily have, let's say, down days as much. Um, because I feel that that is a huge impact when it comes to mental health and menopause as well. So I just feel that the microbiome test just gives them that platform and the framework to just reduce the magnitude of them, I would say the symptoms.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, probably do better placed and I think it's a good um because of the way that report's done and it gives people a list of foods and some direction to go in. I think it helps them to make changes that they otherwise wouldn't have changed. Because the trouble with the menopause is that you know, we've got to appreciate that it is a natural process that the body goes through and the body is very well set up to deal with it if certain other aspects in your life are under control. Because when we look at stress and then inflammation and how the gut does make serotonin, when you start to have hormones impact those things and that environment in the gut is so poor, the body can't pick up the extra that it would have done if you weren't stressed, if you weren't drinking loads of alcohol, if your liver was in a good place, because it's not full of sugar and fat and, yeah, it gets. Everything is linked.
Speaker 1:So I just find that it can be really helpful to motivate someone to adhere to a program in that in that case really, yeah I must just ask you, joss, because I know we gotta wind up soon because we've been chatting away for a while with regards to again just putting my um, I don't know anything, hat on for a minute and and thinking about the people listening what do you think are the main causes of our gut microbiome being so out of balance, should we say I mean, I know it's a big subject, but just generally. And then the main reasons that that someone would say, yeah, I need, I want to go and get my. I want to know what's going on in my gut yeah.
Speaker 3:So I always love the concept of the gut evolution. Now there's quite a few books and there are a few programs on it, but they say that the microbiome that we have in this day and age is only representative about 0.001% of our entire human existence. So even 99.999% is essentially easier. It's simpler, and I'll take you back to the cavemen. They only really had four problems in their life, you know they slept, they hunted, they fed and then they procreated and off they went again. There wasn't many stressors in their life, and they also ate what was available to them. They would hunt certain animals in certain areas and within certain seasons, and the children, um, back in those days, were actually scavengers. They used to collect nuts and berries that were available to them, whereas now children were a bit more dependent on, on us, um, but when it comes to now, I would say that we have an industrial microbiome which I think is one of the phrases that I mentioned earlier and the industrial microbiome is essentially subject to all of the increases in the amount of food that's available to us. So we eat very out of season now, and variety is really lacking in the Western diet, should we say.
Speaker 3:We also have a rise of things like herbicides, pesticides, genetically modified foods god forbid chlorinated chicken coming through from america as a result of brexit but ultimately, the quality of our food is reducing, and that could be due to mass production as well of the foods, it's the preservatives that are used within foods, it's the fillers within foods that we experience, and you know, um, obviously, speaking to the nutritionist, let's talk bread. You know, bread should, by it, by its nature, have four ingredients water, flour, yeast and salt. But when you go to the supermarket, there's about 25 different ingredients. And how can people navigate around life trying to understand what they're eating and what impact it has? Because they just don't know what goes into their body. So ultimately, I feel that society has set us up to fail a little bit.
Speaker 3:And when we do look at things like canola oil and rapeseed oil, all of these are on the rise as well, and that means that you know how much processed food are we consuming on a daily basis? Probably more more so than we ever have done over the last couple of centuries. And what that does to us actually offsets the genus level, bacteria's thermocutes and bacteroids, which is actually used for weight regulation as well. And does that weight regulation affect the hormones like ghrelin and leptin, and a great way that I've learned to know the difference between the two is ghrelin is for feeling hungry. Think of gremlins so that they get hungry and then let's obviously what satisfies you.
Speaker 3:So if those irregulate, then you know. How do we know if we're full and how we over consume in particular foods, and but then we look at the idea of how much fiber people are having as well. I don't feel like fiber is as readily available or not necessarily even spoken about as often as it should do, because maybe the pharmaceutical or supplement businesses out there are trying to just give reoccurring revenue through the concept that you always need pre and probiotics. Just keep buying them. If you've got gut problems, keep doing it. But again, if you don't have fiber, then we're not creating what we call post biotics within our body which actually keeps them alive. So actually we don't need to buy pre and probiotics all of our life. We can actually keep the good bacterias alive by having fiber.
Speaker 3:I always say things as well about. You know our lifestyle in general is a lot more stressful than it used to be. Like, say, cavemen didn't have many stressors. Now, work pressures, relationship pressures, financial pressures, and all of that, you know, switches off our parasympathetic nervous system because we're always in that fight or flight mode or the majority of the time because of all of the stresses around us, and that causes huge issues, you know adrenal fatigue, general lack of motivation and digestive problems. There are things as well in terms of you know, your general system. Again within the nhs, you know we let's talk about medication. So there's been a huge rise in in the concept of having antibiotics and you know that that evolution within our own health care system is actually causing more long-term problems and than they think now.
Speaker 3:I'm a huge advocate of antibiotics. I think that they have saved lots of lives. However, if we think of and there's a great analogy with antibiotics, if we look at the infection as an ant, what we tend to do with antibiotics is that we just stick a nuclear bomb on an ant rather than swatting the ant, and what that does for our gut is it just destroys everything. But was it really necessary to, you know, put a nuclear bomb on a an ant? Because it's not that threatening.
Speaker 3:But unfortunately, the advancements in our healthcare system haven't allowed us to have specific strains of antibiotics that's going to attack that specific strain of bacteria that's going to get rid of their infections. So within periods of time, over generations gone by, you know I know that here's some members of my family what my mom is saying they've got antibiotics in their cupboards from like the 1970s and they used to use them for colds. They were just used for no apparent reason. So I feel that, yes, when people do have infections or bouts of disease and you know, they are given things like you know antibiotics, which really sets us back.
Speaker 3:And unfortunately, the nhs don't believe in the concept of pre and probiotics. They don't believe there's enough science there. So you know, for us as individuals, they've got to have that education to know that we need to supplement correctly to help combat the antibiotics. So, yeah, I feel that there's so many things within our society that's just leading us down this gut evolution and, quite truthfully, I think that this whole gut evolution is going to last for hundreds and hundreds of years Because, if you think of the Darwin theory of the giraffe needs to grow its neck to get the leaf at the top of the tree, that took centuries and I think that's a representation of what our guts are going through to be able to cope with the pressures.
Speaker 3:Because you know as human, you know species, we will evolve, but at the moment, we're in that uh, catastrophic, catastrophic phase within our gut evolution and, um, yeah, I think that there's a lot can be said when it comes to, I think, people's ability to change themselves. Even though there are a lot of pressures out there, there's still, you know, societies like the Japanese and the Scandinavian, who have the longest living individuals on the planet with the best microbiomes. They eat fresher, there's there's taxes on being overweight in some of those countries. So there is things that we can do within society that can help, um, but I think that sometimes the easy option for some people puts them at their own detriment yeah, we've definitely spoken about that side of things as well, haven't we?
Speaker 1:it's. It's definitely harder to be healthier in today's society, but it's not impossible. You've just got to decide to to take the healthier route. It does take a bit more time to do your cooking and your shopping, but it's so important it impacts everything. It's worth the time and effort, I think I agree.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and just that daring to be different. Just not like following along with the crowd as the crowd is at the moment. Yeah, just making that effort to be a bit brave, to stand out from the crowd yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:I have one last question. Hopefully it's not too long, but it's about diversity. Only because on the program hack your health they went into. You know diversity was key. They spoke about so many foods. We've spoken about it on previous episodes and other people are, you know, suggesting more diversity but playing devil's advocate a bit. My thinking around diversity is that if we were to eat seasonally, we wouldn't have that much diversity if we ate seasonally from the foods that are in our, the location that we're in, do you, do you have any views of that?
Speaker 3:Because that's the bit that always confuses me with diversity. I think when we talk about diversity, I always think of variety for some reason. So you know, I always say that when people I think, from the years that I've worked, I've found that people, on average, eat 30 foods on circulation throughout the lifetime, and I think that variety is really important because it actually challenges your digestive system. We can, as a sportsman, I'll use a sports analogy and but if I was to run in a straight line at the same pace, I would always get the same time and my body would never adapt because I'm not putting it out of its comfort zone. But if I sprinted for the first 25 meters out of 100 meters, I'm actually putting pressure on my body and it's adapting as a result. I actually think of the same when it comes to our digestive system. Think, if we eat the same foods day in and day out, our body gets really lazy and our body is meant to be challenged. I feel as well. So having different cultures and influences within your diet, I think, will wake up your digestive system to a point and it will allow your digestive system to, you know, evolve around it and it doesn't get lazy and it makes sure that your metabolism is on top form. So I do feel that you know, when you look at diversity, I do feel that you know if you don't want to eat seasonally, just have something different, you know, and spice up your life.
Speaker 3:I always say so like we have like hello fresh every now and then, because, you know, talking about food for me is quite difficult. It's like the worst conversation I have with people. What we're having for tea, oh, I don't know what's in the fridge. But you know what, sometimes take the choice out of it. You know, I know that, again, hello fresh is a subscription model, this and that. But even you know planning your meals ahead. But just plan out of the box and have something to have Monday to Friday that you wouldn't normally have. You know, change your bangers and mash on a monday for something like a thai thai green curry or something you know. Just make it different because again, you're going to expose your body to different foods and different spices from different cultures that have proven good microbiomes. So yeah, that's how I think of it when it comes to diversity and variety brilliant, brilliant answer.
Speaker 1:Have you got anything else to?
Speaker 2:ask. No, I just. I've loved this conversation so much. There's been so many, so many parallels to so many of our episodes. Yeah and um, I know you can't see in a podcast, but we've just been nodding like, uh, what's like the, the churchill dog?
Speaker 1:yes, we have. Yeah, we have been nodding all the way through. I must just mention what SIBO is, because a lot of people listening might be what is this SIBO? Sibo is small intestine bacterial overgrowth and it causes symptoms that are very similar to to IBS, and it's a problem in a different part of your digestive system. So it's in the small intestines, and so, yeah, just to just to clarify what that is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's helpful I did one time.
Speaker 1:I've heard all the C diff ones but CBO was CBO yeah we shorten it because otherwise it's too much to say, right, yeah, you shouldn't have bacteria in your small intestine. So if you've got an overgrowth there, you've got symptoms you don't want. So, yeah, basically what joshua's saying is that the gut test can give you, uh, an indication as to whether you need to test for SIBO, because it's a different type of test not to be confused with um, confused with SUBO or whatever her, her shortening of her name was on britain's got talent.
Speaker 1:Yes, not to be confused with that. Okay, well, I think it just leaves us to say thank you, josh, for your time today and all the information you gave us absolutely fantastic. We'll put some links in the show notes. Yeah and uh. Yeah, hopefully more people will get their gut tested, have a look at their, their microbiome and future-proof their health.
Speaker 3:Yes, thank you very much for having me. It's been amazing.
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